Wedge-shaped guitar speaker cabinet?

[clintonb]

Tried the "sidewash" idea last night.

Ever tried side washing your amp? Put it at the side of the stage pointed up at your ears, not your back.

Personally, I fold a little guitar back at me in the vocal monitors.

Last night I played again. This time I tried shooting my amp across the stage. Unfortunately, I didn't get to have the amp right by my side. Running along the right side of the stage from front to back we had the keyboard amp, the second guitar player's amp, and then my amp. They were all shooting across the stage.

Immediately, the soundman complained about the guitars being too loud again. But we weren't any louder than the last gig. Definitely not louder than the drummer or bass. I didn't turn down. In fact, the other guitar player turned up! I really had trouble hearing myself and the other guitar player. I was often playing notes without really hearing them. Mainly all I heard was a lot of bass and vocals. During one of my guitar solos, I noticed I heard more of it coming through the PA than from my amp on stage. The drummer thought I was loud and the bass player said he could hear me fine. However, they were much closer to my amp than I was. Luckily I at least had the beam blocker spreading the highs, otherwise I wouldn't have heard myself at all.

Later, I had them put a little bit of guitar through my vocal monitor. That wasn't great, but at least I could hear the guitars better. It felt weird since it sounded like my guitar was coming from everywhere.

So this sidewash idea probably would work if I could actually place my amp to my side, but unfortunately in this particular band situation, I can't. So next weekend I'm going to try using a vocal monitor in front of me as a guitar amp cabinet.

My drummer thinks my ear plugs (actually little wads of toilet paper) are a part of the problem. He's probably got a point. I mainly wear them to knock out the high frequencies that cause my ears to ring after gigs (e.g. crash cymbals and some vocals). I even wear them at other band's concerts and gigs because it just makes everything sound better. But I suppose they are also knocking out a lot of the guitar sound too. Ironically, even though I wear earplugs, I find that my amp isn't set any brighter than the other guitarists I play with. Actually, I'm often darker.

Well, I'll let you guys know how the next gig goes.

- Clint

[Enzo]

First get some real earplugs. ANy music store has them. The cheap foam ones work OK, though you can pay more for better ones. You may play as well as Nugent or Townsend, but you don't need to go deaf like them.

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

Have any of you ever seen a guitar speaker cabinet that is shaped like a wedge, like a stage monitor speaker? Or have any of you ever put a guitar speaker (or should I say driver) into a wedge-shaped monitor speaker? If so, how did it sound?...
- Clint

I have this old cabinet with a Vintage 30 type speaker in it... it sounds great and can be pointed just about anywhere you want on stage to fill or we can point it at the typical wanker guitar player who thinks they are the superstar and needs to hear themselves towering above all else.

[Jag]

ClintonB. Remember that if run your amp into a vocal monitor without disabling the bullet driver/horn, your tone will REALLY SUCK. If the main speaker is not designed for guitar that will likely suck too! If you can, pull the speaker and bullet driver out and put in a guitar speaker. You'll be much happier with that.

As far as ear plugs, get the upper end Hearos. Not the foam ones but the filters http://hearos.com/earplugs/products-00211.html. They're excellent.

[clintonb]

Tried using Rocktron Velocity S-112 speaker tonight.

For tonight's gig I tried a Rocktron Velocity S112 speaker. It is trapezoidal shaped, like some PA speakers. I laid it on its side and propped it up a bit more so it would be at the same angle as a monitor. That worked great. I had absolutely no trouble hearing myself. The soundman not only didn't complain, he said the guitar sounded pretty good tonight.

Noone on stage complained about me being too loud either. The only one who thought I was loud was me. Unfortunately, the bass player and other guitarist had a little trouble hearing me. Maybe they can just put a little of my guitar into their monitors. Or maybe I can try the weber beam blocker to spread the sound a bit. But I worry the singer that stands right next to me might find the guitar too loud again if I did that.

The speaker is smaller than the Mesa 1x12 3/4 back cabinet that I usually use , but it has about the same amount of bass, if not more. I might replace the speaker with my Vintage 30 since the stock speaker sounds a little more muffled than I'm used to. It's not as clear.

- Clint

[clintonb]

I bought some Hearos Hi-Fi earplugs. I noticed they really don't sound any different than when I use toilet paper in my ear. I don't like how it looks with the little blue stems sticking out of my ear. Toilet paper is more discrete and a lot cheaper.

I compared them to foam ear plugs. Now there was a big difference. The foam ear plugs really muffle the sound.

So compared to foam earplugs, the Hearos hi-fi are really impressive. But compared to toilet paper, there is not that much difference.

[clintonb]

Jag,

I know what you mean about playing guitar through a monitor with the horn enabled, it really does suck. Tonight, at one point, for some reason, someone put a lot of my guitar through the vocal monitors while I was playing "Sweet Child of Mine". It was really loud and annoying. I had a hard time playing the intro because the sound was so awful.

As for the Hearos ear plugs, I bought a pair. I just added a post about it earlier in the thread. They really didn't sound much different than using toilet paper in my ear. But they are way better than foam earplugs.

[bob p]

Noone on stage complained about me being too loud either. The only one who thought I was loud was me. Unfortunately, the bass player and other guitarist had a little trouble hearing me. Maybe they can just put a little of my guitar into their monitors. Or maybe I can try the weber beam blocker to spread the sound a bit. But I worry the singer that stands right next to me might find the guitar too loud again if I did that.

another option might be to get a second wedge shaped cabinet and point it at the bass player and the other guitarist.

[Brad1]

Maybe it's not the speaker cab causing this situation at all? I haven't heard you, so I don't know, but there is another possibility that is being overlooked thus far.

Maybe you just don't have your tone dialed in properly? Is it possible that your guitar is getting lost in other instruments, instead of standing out by itself? Are you using the typical metalhead midrange scoop and getting clobbered by the bass on the lower end, and the rest is getting lost in the midst of the other guitar player's sound?

Are you using the same settings that sound so full and fat by themselves when playing alone in your living room, and trying that in the middle of a band? I have a friend who thinks he gets tone-heaven in his living room, and insists he needs that sound when playing with others. The problem is that a guitarist by himself tends to boost the lows and highs to fill out the tonal spectrum that is missing without other instruments. If they try to put those settings in a band, they blame everyone else, because they KNOW their tone is an ear-orgasm. Why does it now sound weak and undefined? Where did the mids go? Because they are encroaching into the territory of others...and others also want to be heard. Otherwise, why be there at all?

If each member of your band carves out their own sonic space, then nobody should have problems hearing anybody. You're the only one occupying that space, for the most part, so logically, if everyone is volume-balanced well, you'll be heard. Yeah, directionality of speaker cabs can be a factor, but even a beaming Marshall closed-back cab should be able to be heard, if you occupy your own space, and don't tweeze the living crap out of your tone by mid-scooping and over-distortion compression that sucks the life out of the notes. And, since everyone isn't getting pummeled by everyone else, the end result will be a much punchier and more defined musical experience for the audience. This guy doesn't have to keep turning up to be heard, which causes this guy to turn up, which causes...well, the sound guy will thank you if you get your space and dynamics right. He can now mix with the proper ingredients, instead of trying to mold a masterpiece out of mud.

Is it possible that you are just getting buried by everyone else, and no matter what you do, you won't be heard until you claim your space and put more balls and less bees in your tone?

I don't know. I haven't heard you. I'm just wondering if this is what is happening, because it is a common problem. Too much distortion and too little mids make for a less powerful guitar sound, not more.

Just something to consider.

Brad1

[clintonb]

No mid-scooped metal tone here!

Maybe it's not the speaker cab causing this situation at all? I haven't heard you, so I don't know, but there is another possibility that is being overlooked thus far.

Maybe you just don't have your tone dialed in properly? Is it possible that your guitar is getting lost in other instruments, instead of standing out by itself? Are you using the typical metalhead midrange scoop and getting clobbered by the bass on the lower end, and the rest is getting lost in the midst of the other guitar player's sound?

Brad,

I'm familiar with the phenomenon you mentioned. But in this case, no, that is not the problem. I don't use a scooped tone. In fact, my tone is often kind of "honky" sounding which makes it really cut through the mix.

When I wasn't using the Rocktron Velocity S112 speaker, the only time others on stage had trouble hearing me was when I had the amp so low that even I had trouble hearing it even though I was standing right next to it. And I only ran it that low to appease the soundman. The Rocktron Velocity S112 speaker just seems to isolate the sound from others. One of the reviews on Harmony Central or Musician's Friend mentioned the same thing.

When I walked over to the bass player's side of the stage, the guitar was a lot quieter, but I thought it was still loud enough to hear what I was doing. But there was definitely a lot less of a "rocking" vibe on his side of the stage.

So the soundman is happy, I'm happy, but the rest of the band is not so happy. Two out of three ain't bad! So I've got a little more work to do.

- Clint

[clintonb]

another option might be to get a second wedge shaped cabinet and point it at the bass player and the other guitarist.

Yes that's another option, but a relatively expensive one. I'll have to save up some more money to do that. Also I wonder if we have room on stage for extra speakers.

- Clint

[Brad1]

Good enough, Clint. Just didn't notice anyone consider that it may be happening, and wanted to mention it in case it might be, instead of just chasing your tail going for the wrong solution.

Besides, some other person might stumble across this thread and get a clue if they ARE actually doing that.

Good luck in your quest.

Brad

[bob p]

Yes that's another option, but a relatively expensive one. I'll have to save up some more money to do that. Also I wonder if we have room on stage for extra speakers.

well, there's yet another option that nobody has mentioned yet -- since everyone but the sound man was happy before, you could just get a new sound man!

[clintonb]

Have any of you ever seen a guitar speaker cabinet that is shaped like a wedge, like a stage monitor speaker?
- Clint

I'm reviving this thread because someone may be interested in the fact that I finally did find one:
Tonewedge

I haven't tried it, but I'm thinking about buying it.

[Gtr_tech]

I have a monitor wedge I use for larger venues. Its a PA cab but has the horn unhooked and a Celestion 12 in it. I sidewash a 4-12 and on a larger stage its gets difficult to hear at the front of the stage where the mic is, so I use the wedge cab driven with its own amp. That way I can hear what I'm doing anywhere on my side of the stage and don't have to be right by the 4-12 to get feedback.....that can be done from the front of the stage as well.

Soundguys give me goofy looks when I use that setup but once I explain the concept they get it. Yea they *could* just put it in the vocal monitor, but that sounds shitty to me.

Someone a few posts back mentioned that bass players never get told to turn down. Well I tell 'em to.....or they need to lose low end. Nothing ruins a FOH mix like a bass player who thinks its 1970 and just *HAS* to have his pants flapping in a speaker cone induced tsunami. Since low end is going everywhere it can really get outta control quick and stomp all over the mix. I just dealt with one of these clowns over the last weekend. It wasn't fun....