I think i'm back !

[daz]

Don't worry, i don't think i'll be pestering the hell out of you guys like before. Especially poor Chuck who must have spent 1000 hours trying to help me. But I have a story about my recent revelation that i think will entertain some of you. I think i'm back after 2+ years with my amp modeler and having given up on tubes. Remember how much space i took up here asking never ending questions in attempt to get my EL34 based home built to sound perfect? That modeler IS still one heck of a great amp, and i gave that tube amp away to a friend's son after i got the modeler ! Well, i still had a smaller amp i first built as a 18 watt but converted to 6V6. I tried the same preamp as in my larger amp early on and it sounded fabulous. But i never really spent any time with it past that because i felt i put too much time and effort into the EL34 amp and thats the tube i always liked best. So the small amp just sat in storage for years while i wasted endless hours on the bigger one. I think one of the questions i posed here was about why that small amp's preamp had such a natural sound that i could not get from my bigger amp even when i copied everything i could exactly, even the filters. I even sent the small amp's pre out to the bigger amps return and got that same natural sound of the smaller amp. But nothing i did would make the big amp sound anything like the smaller one.

So here i am over years into the modeler and it's not incredible, but it's a darn good amp and better IMO than many tube amps i have owned or tried. But there is something that isn't quite right about the the top end on it thats always been missing. Not enough to make me go back to tubes, and i was still quite happy with it till one day recently. I was laid off after 20 years at my job, and i'm pretty much thinking i'm now retired like it or not. Been bored as hell and one day i pulled that old amp out cobwebs and all (literally) and decided i'd turn it into a princeton for those totally pristine clean tones, as thats on thing i don't care for in the modeler. But i first plugged it in and that top end the modeler doesn't have had me rather enjoying it. So i left it like that for a while thinking maybe i should leave it. After a week or so i began to think itls better then the modeler in some ways but the modeler has things it;s better at. I didnt want to get into the whole tweaking thing again, but i had to clean it up because the thing was a slop fest and had some cheezy components like caps that i threw in there with no consideration as to their quality. Lots of sloppy solder blobs and wiring etc. Cleaned it up and didn't change the tone but later on i decided to look the circuit over and see what values i had i n certain places. I noticed 2 things right away. No 100k coming off th master's output that i used in the other amp because it seemed to sound better and make the master work a bit better. And the slope R was a 47k rather than 33k and after playing the amp i felt that too should be changed so in went a 33k.

I would change parts like that in the other amp and they would make a difference but not a lot. But damned if those 2 simple things didn't do wonders for this amp ! The small details that were not perfect before now ARE. Especially focus. The "garbage" (for lack of a better word) around the notes is gone and it's so much better focused. And the 33k slope really beefed it up in a different way than t=in the other amp. Hard to explain, but not just allowing more mids and lows in balance with the highs as it did in the other amp. It changed the harmonic content in a good way is the only way i can explain it. Then i started changing some other values that i thought needed to be changed based on what i was hearing. What i noticed is i could do that and it worked. The other amp was odd in that way. Things that i would thing should change it in a certain way based on what i know and what you guys would tell me either didn't or not much. With this amp you make a change and it really changes, and in the way the change is intended to. I always felt there was something odd about the way the other amp responded to changes. It wasn't right in that respect. This one responds accordingly just how you'd expect the change to do.

That said, i am utterly blown away by this amp. It's gotta be the best sounding tube amp i ever owned, and it's what i intended when i built those EL34 amps. The controls are so versatile i can get a lot of sounds out of it that match various guitars that are radically different sounding. The big amp you'd set it a certain way and never want to change it because it always sounded best there. This amp aslo sounds very close to the same at bedroom levels as at stage volume, something that the other one could never do. it always changed radically once you got it up to band levels and actually well before that. The only way i can describe this amp is it's the closest thing to the perfect amp i have ever had and i'm seriously thinking of selling the modeler. I'm really excited about this amp ! And the crazy thing is, it was my 1st build and it 's been here all along while I toiled for years over that other monstrosity. Well, as they say, live and learn, eh?

[nickb]

How about you post the schematic so we can see what you are talking about?

What kind of modeler did you get? I know a couple of folk with Kemper profilers who swear by them. I had seen them as an expensive option but these people bought the Kemper, and paid for it in effect as they then sold all their other amps, once profiled of course. One of them said that you need to make several models of each amp at different volume levels. To be it's just another tool in the chest.

[daz]

How about you post the schematic so we can see what you are talking about?

What kind of modeler did you get? I know a couple of folk with Kempler profilers who swear by them. I had seen them as an expensive option but these people bought the Kempler and paid it in effect as they then sold all their other amps, once profiled of course. One of them said that you need to make several models of each amp at differnt volume levels. To be it's just another tool in the chest.

I don't have a schematic of it,as it's been years since i built it and it was basically an 18 watt i converted then copied the preamp of the other amp. But that amp was long since changes from that so even that schematic wouldn't be real close. But a rough outline of the pre would be a JCM 800 MV with a regular gain stage in place of the cold bias stage, 20uf filters (just 2) and a bunch of component value differences all connected to a 18 watt PA converted from EL84 to 6V6 (JJ's) and adjustable bias plus a JCM style presence.

The modeler is a mustang III V2. Before you judge you'd need to hear what it can do if you dig deep enough,. I've had several people try my patches and tell me they thought the amp was just ok till they did. You really MUST spend the time, but there are some great tones if you do. But only if the type of tones you like are it;s strength. If you want killer fender cleans or true cranked amp tone maybe a kemper would do it but the mustang won't. I like a good MV amp and it does that really well if you find the right way to tweak for that. But It's the feel of the top end and the range of treble thats not on par with a really good tube amp. But not so much that you can't be damn thrilled with the amp. If this tube amp weren't so amazing i'd not necassarily be looking at selling the fender. But this amp not only does it all so incredibly well, but it kills the mustang with top end that is smooth and glassy and transparent with the right "give" in the feel. I wish i coud replicate this amp cheap enough to sell them because i know this thing will easily compete with the best out there. Problem is the costs to build amps is so high and the profit margin is nothing unless you develop and rep/name, and i don't have the place to do it or the years left it would take to get there. But i'd buy this amp in a nano second if i didn't already have it. I've been ecstatically happy with considerably lesser amps many times. The one thing i am still puzzled about is why this amp is so different even when the preamps were the same. The only thing i can think of is the PT because like i said i have put it;s pre thru the bigger amp's el34 PA so it;s not the OT.

[loudthud]

So, no feedback around the output stage?

Edit: Welcome back!

[daz]

Thanks. And yeah, it's got a FB loop. Look at the last few works in the 1st paragraph of my 2nd post. But it is switchable so i can run w/o FB if i want even tho i'm not a huge fan of OD preamps with no FB in the PB. But it's there if i want it and it might actually be good for a total clean pedal platform. I generally don't run things that way tho.

[Chuck H]

Lots of amps=GOOD

Keep both amps!

It takes a bevy of amps to match every tone idealistically. Lot's of available tones is one reason modeling amps are here to stay. But let's face it, tubes CAN sound best when everything is right. One of my customers has preferred pairings of guitars and amps. He has five amps, two I built, one Boogie I modified pretty extensively, a PV Classic 50 and a Crate Palomino 33 that he doesn't really use. Well, those are his "electric guitar" amps. He also has a couple of acoustic amps and a bass amp. Anyway, he doesn't always use MY amps (regardless of their superiority ) because he just likes the tone he gets with some guitars for some tones with other amps. Did I get to my point.?. You get it.

So, yeah. Worry less, play more. Don't mess with amps that already sound good except to maintain and repair them. Start a new project instead.

The difference with that slope resistor, as you noticed, is greater than just a difference in HF/LF & low mid balance. It also changes the knee frequencies of the capacitors. You made a fairly subtle change but it was apparently enough to filter some uglies and accent some good stuff.

DO NOT: Play the amp for a week and decide it actually sounds like crap. And, even if you do...
DO NOT: Open the amp and start changing components now. And, even if you do...
DO NOT: Fail to keep details about changes and keep parts organized so you can put things in reverse when you change your mind. Again. And, if you do...
DO NOT: Come here and cry about it

I think your obsessiveness is great. And reassuring to me because I do it too. I've been a long time at this to come to a place where I CAN compromise if I absolutely have to, but I appreciate someone that refuses to. There have been several threads started by you that contain information contributing to overall forum content. And, further, you've managed to contribute on occasion whenever what you've learned can help others. Start another amp build and hang around a little more. But please remember that even if you start not liking your current 6V6 amp, just wait a while and see if it doesn't change back.

[daz]

Oh, I'm right there with ya on that Chuck. BUT, you know me. However, i have said in the past things along the lines of "this is the best amp i've played" after making some changes. But it was. That doesn't mean it can't get better, and as time goes by everything I play has improved. I got an acoustic about a year ago i still say is the best one i have ever owned. I have some electrics that i like more than most of the electrics i have owned over the years, and knowing me i'm sure you realize that means a lot. My entire rig just keeps improving as time goes by and as i learn more and more about what i'm after and how to get it.

But i kid you not, they way this amp sounds i am actually SCARED to open it up again. In fact, it's in a trashy little combo cab that was a SS marshall 20 watt 1x12 combo made of particle board i gutted and used the cab and chassis to build it in. The grill cloth is some ugly stuff i got my hands on free to replace the torn original. the speaker is one i never cared a lot for. I mention all that because i was planning on building a nice cab and putting my old faithful EV12L in it, but it sounds so amazing i'm not only afraid to, i''m even afraid to change the grill cloth ! I'm just going to leave it as is because it sounds so perfect i fear any change that may affect it no matter how small. So changing the circuit.....not on your life.....not now anyways. No one knows how they will feel about anything in time. But this amp is honestly like nothing i've ever owned. Even in this tiny crap cabinet with a speaker i usually don't care for theres a huge punch in the chest feel that comes out of it in the lows and low mid. You can feel it. I never felt that before thru anything that wasn't driving a 412. I can't account for why it sounds like this, but again, thats why i'm right with you on that. I don't wanna touch it.

As to having a lot of amps.....naa...i will sell the fender once i'm sure my ears aren't playing tricks on me. I'm a one sound player. Even with 17 amp models i only used one model that i tweaked to get my sound. One great sound that allows me to get anything from it i need thru riding the volume pot, my technique, and pickup selection is all i need. This is the amp that does that best to date. I'll never touch the fender again, i know it. I already A/B'd them for days trying to get the fender to sound as close as possible trying every imaginable combination of model, cab sims, etc, but it's not even close. I'm quite sure that if in a week or 3 my ears still feel the same i will never want to play anything else. The most amazing thing about this amp is any detail thats ever bothered me about any rig i have ever used is easy to dial away with this. the controls literally allow me to tweak it to perfection to whatever guitar i play thru it and leaves me with a tone that does everything perfectly. yeah, boy who cried wolf. Maybe, but i wish you could play this thing. I think you realize why i'm so jacked.

[big_teee]

So what schematic shows a 100k off the MV?
Where did that come from, I think all my 2204 MV amps don't have that?
Anyone know where I can see that on any schematic?
I would like to see that somewhere, if you can point me in that direction.
It don't have to be your amp schematic.
Tnx,
T

**Never Mind, I found the 100k Mod on a MV.

[olddawg]

Oh, I'm right there with ya on that Chuck. BUT, you know me. However, i have said in the past things along the lines of "this is the best amp i've played" after making some changes. But it was. That doesn't mean it can't get better, and as time goes by everything I play has improved. I got an acoustic about a year ago i still say is the best one i have ever owned. I have some electrics that i like more than most of the electrics i have owned over the years, and knowing me i'm sure you realize that means a lot. My entire rig just keeps improving as time goes by and as i learn more and more about what i'm after and how to get it.

But i kid you not, they way this amp sounds i am actually SCARED to open it up again. In fact, it's in a trashy little combo cab that was a SS marshall 20 watt 1x12 combo made of particle board i gutted and used the cab and chassis to build it in. The grill cloth is some ugly stuff i got my hands on free to replace the torn original. the speaker is one i never cared a lot for. I mention all that because i was planning on building a nice cab and putting my old faithful EV12L in it, but it sounds so amazing i'm not only afraid to, i''m even afraid to change the grill cloth ! I'm just going to leave it as is because it sounds so perfect i fear any change that may affect it no matter how small. So changing the circuit.....not on your life.....not now anyways. No one knows how they will feel about anything in time. But this amp is honestly like nothing i've ever owned. Even in this tiny crap cabinet with a speaker i usually don't care for theres a huge punch in the chest feel that comes out of it in the lows and low mid. You can feel it. I never felt that before thru anything that wasn't driving a 412. I can't account for why it sounds like this, but again, thats why i'm right with you on that. I don't wanna touch it.

As to having a lot of amps.....naa...i will sell the fender once i'm sure my ears aren't playing tricks on me. I'm a one sound player. Even with 17 amp models i only used one model that i tweaked to get my sound. One great sound that allows me to get anything from it i need thru riding the volume pot, my technique, and pickup selection is all i need. This is the amp that does that best to date. I'll never touch the fender again, i know it. I already A/B'd them for days trying to get the fender to sound as close as possible trying every imaginable combination of model, cab sims, etc, but it's not even close. I'm quite sure that if in a week or 3 my ears still feel the same i will never want to play anything else. The most amazing thing about this amp is any detail thats ever bothered me about any rig i have ever used is easy to dial away with this. the controls literally allow me to tweak it to perfection to whatever guitar i play thru it and leaves me with a tone that does everything perfectly. yeah, boy who cried wolf. Maybe, but i wish you could play this thing. I think you realize why i'm so jacked.

Lol... I have a bunch of vintage amps and guitars. Want to know what I gig with (and at 61 I gig just about every Saturday night and sometimes Friday too) anymore? ..... A stock Bugera V22, an old Japanese Epiphone Les Paul, an old Japanese Squier Strat, and a JR Tursner Resonator electric (that I got off of CL for $100) The Bugera cost $249 no tax no shipping. I took the badge off last week because I got tired of people asking me what it is. It's 2 X EL 84 amp with a clean and dirty channel. My red 18 watt Marshall through a 1965a cab may sound a little better, but the cab is big and heavy and takes up real estate. My point is most amps people use have very similar basic architecture. With the front panel controls, a pedal board, and some patience you can usually dial in whatever you want out of something, within reason, if it's working properly. I'm probably going to sell off a lot of my gear when I move in a year or so. It's fun to look at. I just don't need it anymore. I don't want to trash the valuable stuff in clubs either.

[Chuck H]

...I have a bunch of vintage amps and guitars. Want to know what I gig with (and at 61 I gig just about every Saturday night and sometimes Friday too) anymore? ..... A stock Bugera V22, an old Japanese Epiphone Les Paul, an old Japanese Squier Strat, and a JR Tursner Resonator electric...

Sounds like someone has had the unfortunate experience of involuntarily donating their stuff at a gig

[tedmich]

as long as the real one doesn't take offense to the synthetic one, all's fair!

[Chuck H]

That is an EXCELLENT representation of a digital modeling amplifier. Looks like they sound. Pretty close to the real deal. And pretty far at the same time Of course SHE isn't going to crab about you having an extra beer, not picking up your towel or how old the sofa is!!! Nor will a digital modeling amp be as likely to cause you the same expense and trouble as a tube amp. But... It's THAT.

[daz]

That is an EXCELLENT representation of a digital modeling amplifier. Looks like they sound. Pretty close to the real deal. And pretty far at the same time Of course SHE isn't going to crab about you having an extra beer, not picking up your towel or how old the sofa is!!! Nor will a digital modeling amp be as likely to cause you the same expense and trouble as a tube amp. But... It's THAT.

To tell you the truth Chuck, it;s a LOT closer to that considering just what i'm comparing it to. Comparing it to my EL34 amp i spent all those years trying to perfect, i prefer the modeler and in fact if i hadn't pulled that small amp out of storage and tweaked it out of sheer bordom being out of work and all, i'd still be using the modeler. You have to own a modeler that really sounds and feels like a tube amp, and only in recent years have they cracked the code. And if you know me you know how anal i am about tone. So don't go by the modelers you have tried because 1-most till recently are horrible, and 2-for whatever reason the stock presets are so bd it;s one of the words biggest mysteries as to why they sell them with the presets they do. And 3- and this is an important one, because they have so many controls and models that you absolutist MUST spend a lot of time finding the model and settings that get you there. Mine was the 59 bassman model with very particular settings that i used mostly, and it felt and sounded BETTER than most tube amps i have owned in every way but one. And that one is where it fails compared to my little 6V6 amp. NOT however compared to my bigger amp, which by the way i GAVE to someone after a time realizing i'd never want to play it compared to my modeler. Anyways, that one way is the treble of the amp. My tube amp has that top end sizzle which i consider to be a certain range of hi harmonics that the modeler doesn't generate near as much of. So the top end doesn't have the squish and bite that the tube amp has, but as good as many other tube amps. But the mids of the modeler are as good if not better. I plug into it now and then and the difference in tone and feel is NOT modeler vs tubes, it's one guitar tone vs the other just as tho u r comparing one tube amp to another. I don't even look at it as a digital amp, i just look at it as another tube amp that happens to be one of the better ones i have had, just not as good as my 6V6 amp. But consider what i said before....this is the best tube amp tone i feel i have had to date including all the production amps I've owned so for that modeler to sound as good or better would be tough, just as it is for all the tube amps i've owned to sound as good or better then my little 6V6 amp.

And i assume the kemper and other hi end modelers probably have that kind of top end i'm talking about and i may find those as good or better, who knows. I just think the fender being so inexpensive can;'t be expected to be as good. I think fender could probably get the top end to be better if they wanted but likely need to do something to keep it from being better then thier hi end tube stuff the same way they cripple squier classic vibe guitars with mediocre pickups and hardware. But even then the mustang is fenders best selling amp line and many people have sold off thier tube amps for them. Also, at low volumes they have much more that top end my tube amp has i spoke of but it goes away as you turn up. So i think all they need to do is perfect the PA section and i might well not be selling my modeler. And in fact i'm not right away. I'm waiting to see how the tube amp does a jam with friends.I have little doubt it will be great but you never knowmwhen it comes to comparing hon=me tone vs stage volume/band mix tone. You know how that goes.

Anyways, the point is just because i'm putting "a particuar" tube amp over "a particular" modeler, don't think of it as tube amp's winning over modelers as has long been the way most of us have always thought. Thats antiquated thinking with todays technology. That fender is my preference over my EL34 amp and over most if not all production tube amps i've owned. I just happened upon a amp that i built long ago that i didn't realize how good it could be with a totally killin tone quality i don't think i have ever had before. The tricky thing with modelers is they are not east to tweak. Yes, you can get a tone quickly, but it;s that last few % that is what separates tubes and digi, and it can be really hard and time consuming to find it. I have had a few people with mustangs who weren't finding them to be all that do a 180 when they tried my patches and went from your impression of modeling to mine just by trying by patches. Thats why some people never get to hear how real modelers can be, and i'm not BS'ing you or exaggerating, that has happened at least a couple times.

[eschertron]

The 'sucky factory patches' discussion went on for years (decades?) when the Yamaha DX-7 and its keyboard synth brethren came out. There were, perhaps still are, websites with many thousands of patches for all of those synths. More to the point, most of the factory patches in my Vox VTX have been replaced by third-party or personally-tweaked sounds. Many patches and much discussion about the patches found on the internet. I think Vox actually hosts one site for patch development.

In the early 80's, when synths were new, it was always a chuckle to hear a top 40 song with a distinctive factory synth patch. Of course, only studio rats would know, right?

[daz]

The 'sucky factory patches' discussion went on for years (decades?) when the Yamaha DX-7 and its keyboard synth brethren came out. There were, perhaps still are, websites with many thousands of patches for all of those synths. More to the point, most of the factory patches in my Vox VTX have been replaced by third-party or personally-tweaked sounds. Many patches and much discussion about the patches found on the internet. I think Vox actually hosts one site for patch development.

In the early 80's, when synths were new, it was always a chuckle to hear a top 40 song with a distinctive factory synth patch. Of course, only studio rats would know, right?

I can't even understand why anyone would even use them. To me that's like buying a tube amp and leaving the knobs where they were when you pulled it out of the box. And even then you might get lucky and the knobs might be in a reasonable useful position. Those factory presets on a modeler actually sound as if they were TRYING to make it sound bad. Of the 100 not one was any good and the vast majority were literally unusable to me at least.