Orange drops or Mallory 150s in 5E3 build?

[eschertron]

I've posted here before about heat sinks. When I got back into building, I used them for about everything except resistors and wires. Now, after a few years, I'm still likely to use a clip of some sort on expensive e-lytics and pots, things like that. Sometimes not. I have found that since heat sinks conduct heat so much better than the device I'm trying to protect (well, duh!) I actually spend more time with the iron on the joint, a realization that has me using the sinks less and less.

[Chuck H]

Yup. A good, hot iron, a clean tip and rosin core lead solder are wonderful things.

I heat sink more on old amps than I do when building. Old components REALLY hate being overheated and old solder joints, especially pots and eyelets with five component and wire leads jammed in them, can be REALLY stubborn to melt. I always hit them with fresh melted solder right away. Never just jam a dry tip onto them and hold for effect. As noted, the melted solder at temp conducts heat into the joint MUCH faster. I don't have a desoldering station but if I ever get back into some of my shelved projects I plan to get one. I think it causes less damage to desolder some of that old stuff and move to fresh solder than it does trying to work the old, grainy, smelly original joint with flux. I'm talking about mods too. Where you might be remelting the joint a couple of times while attempting to jam components in and out of the crowded hole. That first time on a blob of old solder it's always a good idea to heat sink old caps and CC resistors. CC resistors can take a lot of abuse but old ones can drift and stick that way when you really heat 'em up. Since I started my electronics avocation by modding old amps I really wish I'd known then what I learned along the way. I'd have done a lot less damage

[Gregg]

Why not use polyester orange drops

[Chuck H]

Why not use polyester orange drops

Those are good too. And about as similar to the old Mallory OD's as you can get now. Too expensive IMHO, but read my last observation. If it's what you want, it's good that it can be had.

[Dan Theman]

Replaced the Orange Drops with Mallory 150's today. Got a better tone; there was a touch of harshness before and it's gone now. Also, the big Orange Drops tended to vibrate more when cranking the amp; there was a rattling noise when strumming certain chords as they picked up the frequencies.

[cyclone]

OD's rattle in that amp because they are the wrong form factor! I de-OD a lot of mullet modified Fender heads and combos, those .22's in a Bassman head that get mounted spreadeagle style then hung upside down can rattle, create microphonic effects as you mentioned, and break. I wouldn't put radial caps in that amp, wouldn't put 150's in a radial PCB Booger app either. Not saying I haven't done my share of mullet mods but its been since before CD's came out

no human on earth can tell the difference between cap brands, flavors or colors in a double blind test. You should select parts by values, ratings and form factor, not to mention using a known reliable manufacturer.

[Pedro Vecino]

no human on earth can tell the difference between cap brands, flavors or colors in a double blind test. You should select parts by values, ratings and form factor, not to mention using a known reliable manufacturer.

I read that 12AX7 sound the same, capacitors sound the same... I wonder what's next: mahogany and ash?

[Chuck H]

I read that 12AX7 sound the same, capacitors sound the same... I wonder what's next: mahogany and ash?

Everything sounds the same... If you measure it right. Example: If you "look" at the measured sound wave of a cheap overseas made acoustic guitar and a pre war Martin D28 you'll "see" that there is no significant difference between the two. therefor they do not sound significantly different. Period.

[Pedro Vecino]

For sure! At night all cats are gray.

[guitician]

These sound better than anything else I've tried in effects, the 200v ones should work in a 5E3.http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/449/pfn-205882.pdf They don't seem to be available single anymore

[cyclone]

I'm not talking about measurement, talking about a double blind test. I'll say it again, there's no human on earth that can tell the difference between different style caps of the same value in the same circuit under the same conditions in a double blind test. I've done the test, routinely show people when setting up their amps that they can't tell the difference. By conducting a double blind test. Prove me wrong. Try using the scientific method rather than internet bs and marketing hype.

Tubes are devices whos characteristics are highly dependent on their mechanical construction and definitely have different behaviours, even inside the same bottle. There is huge variability in the same brand of NOS tubes up to 20% +/- in characteristics vs nominal "bogey" tube values. Thats when we could get good new ones from US manufacturers.

The out-of-spec ones sometime were destroyed, sometimes sold to a different vendor and relabled. (groove tubes) So, to say one " brand" sounds good is a statement bourne of ignorance and inexperience.

[Chuck H]

I'm not talking about measurement, talking about a double blind test. I'll say it again, there's no human on earth that can tell the difference between different style caps of the same value in the same circuit under the same conditions in a double blind test. I've done the test, routinely show people when setting up their amps that they can't tell the difference. By conducting a double blind test. Prove me wrong. Try using the scientific method rather than internet bs and marketing hype.

Tubes are devices whos characteristics are highly dependent on their mechanical construction and definitely have different behaviours, even inside the same bottle. There is huge variability in the same brand of NOS tubes up to 20% +/- in characteristics vs nominal "bogey" tube values. Thats when we could get good new ones from US manufacturers.

The out-of-spec ones sometime were destroyed, sometimes sold to a different vendor and relabled. (groove tubes) So, to say one " brand" sounds good is a statement bourne of ignorance and inexperience.

I appreciate that. Enough that I don't worry about what brand of caps I use very much. And I agree that if you change a cap of measured value in an amp that no one can hear a difference. BUT...

What if you change ALL of them? Or the most critical ones like the first coupling cap and the treble cap? Because I've done that experiment. Let's assume for the sake of argument that there could be two identical amps. All component values measured, etc. If you built one with 715p's and the other with 150's I believe I could consistently differentiate between the two. The difference isn't the sort of thing that will make or break your tone. That's just silliness. But I think most players would demonstrate a preference dependent on tastes and amp design. Not a good/bad difference. Just a difference. And for certain designs certain things certainly sound more "correct". If that constitutes better or worse is up to the player.

And I just don't believe that Groove Tubes buys lots of "out-of-spec" tubes for relabeling. Other than the same min/max everyone else gets. It's very accusatory and slanderous. Maybe you could provide a link that supports your position on this. You obviously developed this belief because of SOMETHING you read, heard or experienced. For my own experience, and supported by most of the lit available on line, rebranders distribute tubes that have been tested for their own criteria of relative worthiness. Tube sellers that DON'T rebrand, however, seem much more likely to just flip product without such testing and culling. Ergo the lower price, lesser warranty and higher failure rate that I think many here have bemoaned. JM2C on that.

[J M Fahey]

I read that 12AX7 sound the same, capacitors sound the same... I wonder what's next: mahogany and ash?

Mahogany and ash are naturally grown, living products, and have a lot of variation as all biological stuff (include Humans in there).
Yes, they are VERY different.

Tubes parts are machine made but they are still hand assembled, including spot soldering of tiny parts, winding of fine wire around metal posts, and although close enough to be used in the same circuits, do have some differences, large enough to be audible under some circunstances.
They are SOMEWHAT different.

MODERN capacitors (won't vouch for obsolete types made by semi automatic machines which still had some operator influence or could get out of alignment) are made by incredibly precise machines (think NASA , no kidding) , with incredibly uniform materials, checked many times along the path.

This is the fully automatic, self controlled capacitor machine EPCOS/TDK uses, same as used by all major makers because not doing so is commercial suicide
PLEASE click the detailed images to fully open, they are larger than screen size:



This is a closeup showing, among other things, the "plastic"(ugh!!! ) film used as dielectric.
Your choice, of course, it can also wind mojo full *paper* caps if you wish. Poor performers but that's not the point, huh?
Not in the brochure, but I guess you can even load it with silver foil and beeswax impregnated silk, to make $150 a pop Japanese High End caps , condom rubber for sexy caps, thin rawhide for Cowboy caps and so on:



The only human intervention,*after* they are made, is picking 1 in 10000 to measure, check in all ways possible, just to make sure the machine is still making them as programmed.



By the way, that's "a sweatshop in INDIA" .
As you see the poor exploited Indians (same as Koreans or Chinese) are getting the despicable Tech jobs, while the really good ones (such as in serving people in Mc Donalds, flipping the burgers, etc.) were left behind for privileged American Workers.

My point?
A cap is a cap is a cap (if modern, of course) .
To be more precise: a uF is a uF is a uF .

read the cap making machine brochure:
http://www.koem.com/product_pdf/FilmCapacitor.pdf
they can wind plastic (polyester/polypropylene/you_name_it) or paper , in *any* diameter up to 6" (150mm) , so now you know who actually makes those expensive Solens or Mundorf or any other magic caps , they are all made in the same machine, same materials, simply in larger than usual values.

Of course, you can make them long and thin, short and fat, radial or axial, it's just a different program fed to the machine.

You can also cover them in any material you want, any colour, print whatever you wish ... inside they are all the same, if same specs.

I dare say they also sound the same

* Almost forgot: one machine version can wind non inductive caps, how's that?

[Chuck H]

I think we need to agree to disagree on this one Juan There are subtle differences in performance due to dielectric material and design that I do think make themselves apparent the bigger picture of a high gain guitar amp. Similar to my acoustic guitar analogy above. Of course, it could be effectively argued (and Stan certainly would ) that there really isn't a significant good/bad difference between two such guitars if both were set up for top performance. Just a small difference in tonality for better or worse in either guitars case and, of course, a huge difference in price. A lot like capacitors

[guitician]

Caps are like water, they are all the same right? I've never tasted any water that was any different from any others. I guess it's because my tastes are such.