Part-time business advice

[lmolter]

I've got it my mind that it would be fun to refurbish old vintage tube amps for resale and to create replicas of famous vintage amps for sale. I really have no questions about the repair/refurbish part of the business. It's the building and selling of replica and boutique versions of Fender or Marshall amps that have me nervous. Is the market saturated with amp builders? If I build an authentic '59 Bassman with the best and closest-to-original parts possible, and the price is lower than a '59 RI, is there a market? I've got a guy that will make amp cabinets in either real tweed, Tolex, or finished birch for way less than I can buy them commercially. I can get chassis from a number of manufacturers, as you all know. But can I make any money at it? It looks like everyone is building 5F6-A's - is there room for one more?

Hoping the answer is 'Go for it'.

Larry

[tweed5259]

if you built a proper 5F6A and it sold for what a reissue sells for, I know SEVERAL people that would be interested. The trick is that everyone has expensive clones. But they sound awesome. If you can make one that sounds just as good as a 4510 Kendrick or a 45410 Victoria for somewhere around $1,400 you'd most likely have more than a few orders.

just my .02

[Enzo]

But that is the trick. DOing it and making money at the price point. Lots of people make good sounding amps. LOTs of people making things like the old standards. You have to get people aware of yours and want it more than the others.

Go to the music store or a well stocked news stand and get a copy of Vintage GUitar magazine and maybe a couple other guitar mags (my local Barnes and Noble has all of them). Look at all the ads. Especially all the smaller ads more towards the rear - I got a feeling you won't be buying a lot of full page ads up front. There is your competition.

I have had any number of guys through my shop wanting advice and help building their own amps. They inevitably think they will be able to crank out their amps and make a bundle. And they all find out that amps don't just fly together. Not saying this won't work, but go into it well informed.

So you can get cabs cheaper than retail, OK. Is that a firm quote that will hold for more than one cab? And have you seen the work and is it suited to your product? Best deal in the world is useless if it looks like home made. CHassis are not cheap, but are availaible. And then there are all the other things.

Sit down and build one on paper. Add up that cab, that chassis, the speakers, the feet, handle, corners, the tubes. then add up the transformers, the sockets, the jacks, the pots, the caps and resistors, the switches, the fuse holder, the pilot lamp and socket assembly, don't forget the jewel, the eyelet or turret board, the power cord. And wire. Unless you plan to use scrap wire torn from surplus electronics or use all one color wire, you will need rolls of nice wire, add them in. Then there are the screws. Screws for the feet and corners, for the chassis mount, for the parts board, etc. Nice finish washers for the chassis screws please. What did I leave out? AH, knobs. Oh and tube retainers. Gonna have shark jaws on the octal sockets?

List it all and get a real price. DOn't look at it and say Oh that couldn't be more than $10-15. Get the real data. Add it up. There will be shipping cost on those parts too, possibly tax unles you have a resale license.

You gonna use fancy parts like Mercury transformers, or something more pedestrian?

That is what the stuff will cost. You will invest that much into each amp. You should expect a return on that investment - I sure wouldn't calculate the sale price of the amp based on selling the parts at cost. How much markup is your decision.

And then there is the labor.

Build one. I assume you will believe in yourself that you can sell it. Build it, and keep a log. Keep track of every minute you spend on it. I personally would not put 20 hours into something and pay myself only $100 for the privelege. Your time is a valuable asset, you shouldn't give it away. That includes time soldering, time schlepping parts and suplies, time ordering parts, time shopping for parts.

Sure, if the thing sails you can production line things - ten amps won't take ten times as long as one amp. But if you are building them as one offs, then you can't.

I think if you add all that up and actually complete the experiment, you will find it is a lot harder to make and sell amps inexpensively than it looks.

But that is the only way to know, do it. Worst that can happen is you wind up with an amp.

[lmolter]

Wow. 2 good replies: The first one got me excited to try it; the 2nd was a reality check. Which I probably need anyway so I don't get in trouble early on. So thank you both for your input.

I'm going to proceed slowly and cautiously. I'll make parts lists and detail every cost. Hopefully, I can make some wise choices in parts such as speakers and transformers and caps so that I can get a reasonable likeness to the sound without spending a fortune. I guess there'll have to be some trade-offs, at least for the first one or two. If I make any money, then maybe the next batch can use the better parts. Does that make any sense?

I bought an old Peavey Classic 20 off of a fellow who was out of work and needed the money. He's a luthier, but that's not his main occupation -- it's his passion. And he showed me a beautiful wood cabinet he made for a Mesa Boogie. Nice natural finish, finger joints, leather handle, and tweed grill. We got talking and I mentioned my intent to start a small home-grown replica amp business and I asked him if he could make tweed or Tolex or boutique Bassman cabinets for me. He was delighted to have the chance to make something and get a little much-needed money. I haven't found the actual plans for a Bassman cabinet yet, so I don't know the amount of wood needed to build it. All I have so far is a Hoffman chassis and a fiber-board set. And an oscilloscope. And a signal generator. But I'm psyched to start. I've to go slow because I can't afford to buy all the parts at once. It'll be like the Johnny Cash song about the '59 Cadillac he built from parts he brought home from the assembly line each year. I have an electronics degree (from 1975) and have been tinkering for years. I've been looking for something to do on the side for a number of years now, and I guess it was after I built a home-brew Leslie cabinet that the bug bit me to build tube amps. I, myself, don't play that well. But I have a lot of friends and family who do. And it's these people that know people that ARE musicians. I'm hoping to a lead or two that way.

Gee, I really rambled there. Sorry. But as Enzo said, worst that can happen is that I'm left with an amp (and $800 in bills for parts!).

I'm still looking forward to at least building one.

Larry

[Enzo]

I used to work at a Mesa dealer - long ago - and we had a spedial Mesa - a MArk2 I think - that was in a special furniture wood cab with woven cane speaker grille. Dovetail joints, I assume veneer on the outside.

Looked a lot like this


close up of woven cane



I always liked the cane grille. My mom and dad were into restoring old chairs, and they re-caned old chair seats. It reminds me of them.

[lmolter]

That cabinet looks just like the one my friend built, with the exception that his was a lighter shade of fir (and the finger joints were quite visible in a pleasing kind of way). Since the wood was light, he used a dark cane - almost opposite of the color scheme in the picture. Real nice. Now, all he has to do is make a Bassman cab the same way and they will come <g>.

L

[Steve Conner]

I love those custom Boogies. They look great.

I also agree on Enzo's reality check. I've worked for several small companies and also done freelance design work. My rule of thumb is that, in small and bespoke production, you must be able to sell your gizmo for at least 3 times what the parts cost, if you want to eat. 10 times is really cool.

You also have the problem of selling anything to musicians. Most of the good ones who would appreciate tone are broke. If you want to make money, you probably need to sell your stuff to lawyers and dentists, in which case it just needs to look expensive

The cost of labor is another thing. It gets tricky when you "do something on the side" and think you don't need to cost the labour when it's something you like doing anyway. Now, I don't know if this is the same for everyone, but for me, nothing is fun if there's a deadline involved. I enjoy tinkering with tubes, and I love the smell of hot tweed, but I doubt I would enjoy building one identical tweed Bassman clone every week for a year and finding customers for them. As soon as I try making money out of anything, it stops being fun and becomes work.

So if I'm doing anything like this, I price my labour at the same hourly rate I get in my day job. That puts me out of the amp building business straight away.

[PRNDL]

I started doing what you describe and have had some very interesting and unusual results.
Currently I have 4 of my amps for sale at Real Guitar in Fort Myers, Florida.

They are hand-made prototype amps at very reasonable prices when compared with the rest of the amps in the store. Real Guitars has tons of amps, including many boutique amps that are priced around $3,000 (mine are less than $1,000).

Unfortunately, amp sales in general are down due to the economy and road construction in downtown Fort Myers.

They also asked if I repaired tube amps as their tech had moved, so I said yes. The tech believed that there was some conspiracy going on in Florida and it was no longer safe to live here.

I told my mentor, a local tube amp builder, and he got extremely angry and called me a "Northern Carpetbagger" that is only interested in taking jobs from people in the south. We're no longer on speaking terms, and he's blocked my email.

Apparently he'd helped several other people get started building amps and they opened their own shops and suffered similar wraths. One is quite well regarded for building Fender copies.

I've been putting together parts lists and calculating prices for amps and have found that the costs are very high, making it almost impossible to compete with kits, especially from overseas.

Boutique amps have a much higher price tag, but after seeing them and hearing their reviews from the shop owner and staff, the price is justified for some of them.

I decided to make my niche the reasonably priced homemade amp and focused on low-watt bedroom amps in tweed.

[lmolter]

Well, here's my plan... Scrape up enough money every paycheck to buy another part or set of parts for a proposed Bassman clone. Carefully build and wire the amp, while reading everything under the sun about tube circuits and amps. It's been so long since I I've had a strong desire to do anything with electronics and I have a lot of enthusiasm for this project. Since I hold a steady, good-paying job as a software engineer, I don't need to crank out an amp a week to stay afloat. One a month would be ok. Less even. But I kind of want to help my out of work cabinet maker friend, too, who's at risk of having his electricity turned off. So... it's more of a hobby with the added bonus of a little fun money (assuming I can sell them). Let's worry about the selling later. I still have the hurdle of actually making one, though. And... I'll have to improve my guitar playing skills (read poor) so that I can appreciate what I just made.

Thanks to all who have replied and shared their wisdom. I'll post my progress in a non-boring way as it happens.

Larry

[Jester]

I really don't know the answer to your question, as to weather the market is saturated with clones. I would have thought if you can make a better sounding amp at less money than the re-issues, and pay the salesmans commission together with taking a wage for yourself, then your on to a good thing.

I have little experience in this having only just started home building amps, but most of the books I read have been from people who tried to do what you are doing. Given the number of kits, and books out there, my guess is it's a tough market, and a lot of people try it and look for parallel activities (such as kit supply or how to do it books) to make a dollar. There are some very cost effective kits out there which make it quite a challenge to compete.

I guess the answer is, if it's your passion, go for it. If you want to get rich quick, I'd suggest you look elsewhere.

[Paul P]

There are probably also some legal issues you'll have to address. Like
what happens if one of your amps burns down someone's house, or
electrocutes an infant who stuck his hand in the wrong hole.

Paul P

[Jester]

Well, here's my plan... Scrape up enough money every paycheck to buy another part or set of parts for a proposed Bassman clone. Carefully build and wire the amp, while reading everything under the sun about tube circuits and amps. It's been so long since I I've had a strong desire to do anything with electronics and I have a lot of enthusiasm for this project. Since I hold a steady, good-paying job as a software engineer, I don't need to crank out an amp a week to stay afloat. One a month would be ok. Less even. But I kind of want to help my out of work cabinet maker friend, too, who's at risk of having his electricity turned off. So... it's more of a hobby with the added bonus of a little fun money (assuming I can sell them). Let's worry about the selling later. I still have the hurdle of actually making one, though. And... I'll have to improve my guitar playing skills (read poor) so that I can appreciate what I just made.

Thanks to all who have replied and shared their wisdom. I'll post my progress in a non-boring way as it happens.

Larry

Good luck Larry,
I hope you have as much fun as I have building clone amps. I too it's good fun, and sure makes me wish I could play the guitar a bit better too.
Jester

[scole]

i built a 5f4 for my nephew about 3 years ago, it cost about 450 dollars. his friend wanted one, so i just finished that one, it cost easily 700 to build. i would like to get 2500 dollars for an amp because of the time and hard work it takes. i told these guys if anyone asks how much they paid say 2500. i did theirs alot cheaper. they love them and especially the fact that they are custom hand made. when the guy came to pick his up he said "your not gonna get this at guitar center". i hope this leads to more sales, i was even thinking of putting a small ad in the news paper. we'l see how it goes. my advice is go for it. chances are theirs no one real close buy that does amps anyway, so you can get a buzz going in your neiborhood and go from there.

[BackwardsBoB]

I graduated HS in '74. A friend wanted to be an aerospace engineer, and you may remember that back then, that meant that you were unemployed. We went to see our mentor/physics teacher. He said "Well, you know, there's always work if you're good, and working's no fun if it's not what you want to do." Looking back at 30 years in industry, I see he's right. It might take you years to get a rep, but if you're good...

And Cooper's answer was so right on that it made me giggle.

[lmolter]

Your story is right along the line of what I'd like to happen: Build an amp, sell it to a friend or family member, and have word-of-mouth bring in enough business to make a little money but not enough business to totally take over every minute of your spare time.

I have to ask a couple of questions regarding your construction if I may because I'm dealing with these issues right now: Did you buy or make your own cabinets; Did you use cloth wire for authenticity; Did you purchase the higher-priced Sprague Atoms for the power supply and oil-filled TADs for signal-path coupling; And did you use Jensen reissues of the P10 and P12's, or did you go with alternates such as Weber, Eminence, or warehousespeakers.com speakers?

I'm starting to re-think my decision to start with a Bassman - it's a big amp. I'm not swayed by the building of it; rather, I wonder if there is more interest in a smaller Champ- or Princeton-sized amp. Where does the 5F4 fall into the lineup?

Anyway, sorry for all the questions. I guess it's all about keeping the price down without severely compromising the sound and reliability of the amp.

Larry