Grounded

[gbono]

I have a question regarding grounded line cords. I believe that some folks would like the older amps to be as "stock" as possible and that includes using a non-grounded line cord.

My stance has been to ALWAYS replace the old style LC with a grounded UL/CSA/VDE approved 10-12' 14-16AWG chord. I also disable the polarity switch on older amps for obvious reasons.

Keeping it stock may mean a nasty shock or worse. Maybe I'm old fashioned but did I miss something here??

[Chuck H]

Offer what you think is best. If it seems possible, explain why you want to do it that way...

Then give 'em what they want. And if needed write up a disclaimer.

Chuck

[cbarrow7625]

Keep replacing the line cords. Tell your customers that they can thank you when they're not dead.

[txstrat]

Keep replacing the line cords. Tell your customers that they can thank you when they're not dead.

I totally agree.

[gbono]

Wow, a disclaimer would really put me in jeopardy. It's like the beware of dog sign that just proves you have a vicious animal within city limits ;-)

I am concerned how little most musicians/customers understand about the dangers of electrical circuits. Also amazed at what I've seen people do (or try to do) with line voltage and current without causing casualties.

Maybe the abundant amount of misinformation on the internet has given people more dumb courage when the only previous source of knowledge was a book.

[Chuck H]

Fact is that probably millions of people have played and/ or are playing through amps without a grounded AC cord...And how many resultant deaths have you heard of?

The risk with an ungrounded AC cord is 120V. Unless the amp is grossley busted. And sure, that'll smack you good if there is AC on the chassis and you hit the mic with your lips (I know for sure THAT can happen) But that was at a divey little club that had the wall plugs wired incorrectly (as it turned out) and I lived. Who hasn't stuck their finger in a lamp socket or tried to pry a burned piece of bread from a toaster with a fork? 120 probably won't kill you. But it can. And of course I always use and replace with grounded AC cords. But until there are casualties due to the problem and it is deemed a genuine threat there will always be customers that want it wired stock.

I guess I'm lucky that I am not in the repair biz and this problem isn't in my face all the time. But it seems to me a disclaimer could be reasonable. "So and so has made me aware of the risks and I have chosen to have this amp wired according to the original schematic, yada, yada, yada..." That doesn't seem like a beware of dog sign at all. A beware of dog sign is a proclomation that you have created an intentionally dangerous environment. Thats not the same as contracting to create a dangerous environment at the customers instruction. You should be no more liable than the pet store that sold the dog.

Your only other option is to turn away customers that insist. Which also means turning away their future business and referals. In this economy, who can afford to do that?

I'm just trying to burn down the BS, stop being idealistic and get to brass tacks here. If your in business, does any of this seem unreasonable?

JM2C

Chuck

[Enzo]

You are not obligated to do every repair that is offered you. If the customer demands the work be done in an unsafe manner, you can certainly decline to do the work.

Millions of people drive home drunk every day and they don't kill themselves or anyone else. Millions of people smoke cigarettes every day and don;t get cancer. people have sex without protection or birth control every day, and yet they don;t get pregnant or catch AIDS. Does that make those things good ideas or OK things to do?

Getting away with it is not an endorsement for a behavior.

Never think up reasons not to be careful.

I have never been fatally shocked. I dare say no one else here has either. People are indeed electrocuted fatally, but how about those who are merely injured. You touch your lips to a hot mic and it throws your head back and you trip and fall. Ever fall off stage? Not many folks recommend it. I have in fact grabbed the hot wire from a TV picture tube. 30,000v at not hardly any current. Was I afraid for my life? No. But many old TV guys will tell you, you are more likely to break your arm on the cabinet from the muscle reaction than to electrocute yourself. I sure banged the piss out of my elbow that time. All these minor injuries that might result from an ungrounded amp chassis may not be fatal, but they can be the cause of damage to your self or not being able to play the rest of the night.

Hi everybody, we're Okra Pickle and we'll be here all weEEEEEEEEEEEEKKK!!!! Holy cats, my amp bit me and my fingers are numb.

The disclaimer idea seems so simple, but try running it by an attorney.

"Hey, the repair guy had me sign something, but he went ahead and did it anyway, so how bad could it be?"

[Chuck H]

You are not obligated to do every repair that is offered you. If the customer demands the work be done in an unsafe manner, you can certainly decline to do the work.

I agree. That's why I said it was an option.

Millions of people drive home drunk every day and they don't kill themselves or anyone else. Millions of people smoke cigarettes every day and don;t get cancer. people have sex without protection or birth control every day, and yet they don;t get pregnant or catch AIDS. Does that make those things good ideas or OK things to do?

Getting away with it is not an endorsement for a behavior.

Never think up reasons not to be careful.

I agree.

But as I also stated above, I see this as idealistic. You have to do your job if your going to earn a living at it. As long as there are smokers someone is going to sell cigarettes. The store that sold them is not responsible for their cancer.

I know that pumping oil from the ground will ultimately lead to human demise and yet I drive my car every day. Because it's what I have to do to survive now. Who isn't guilty of this one? Anyone taking the higher road and refusing to wire a vintage amp according to the schematic for safety principles should also stop driving their car. Whats the difference? Otherwise it's just snobbish hypocrisy disguised as principles.

I have never been fatally shocked. I dare say no one else here has either. People are indeed electrocuted fatally, but how about those who are merely injured. You touch your lips to a hot mic and it throws your head back and you trip and fall. Ever fall off stage? Not many folks recommend it. I have in fact grabbed the hot wire from a TV picture tube. 30,000v at not hardly any current. Was I afraid for my life? No. But many old TV guys will tell you, you are more likely to break your arm on the cabinet from the muscle reaction than to electrocute yourself. I sure banged the piss out of my elbow that time. All these minor injuries that might result from an ungrounded amp chassis may not be fatal, but they can be the cause of damage to your self or not being able to play the rest of the night.

Hi everybody, we're Okra Pickle and we'll be here all weEEEEEEEEEEEEKKK!!!! Holy cats, my amp bit me and my fingers are numb.

I'm not advocating being unsafe. Really. But I don't think any one should censor any one elses right to make their own decision about it with their amp. If you provide a service, you either provide that service or you don't. Doctors or police who made such distinctions based on their personal beliefs wouldn't last long. How does anyone have the right to decide what is or isn't trivial enough to the grand scheme that they should be allowed derail someones freedom of choice.

The disclaimer idea seems so simple, but try running it by an attorney.

If disclaimers didn't work hospitals, big tobacco and many industrial employers would not be able to continue operating. It's as plain as that.

"Hey, the repair guy had me sign something, but he went ahead and did it anyway, so how bad could it be?"

I do (and did) advocate telling the customer how bad it can be. We shouldn't regulate intelligence any more than we should kill all stupid people to simplify the decision making process.

Chuck

DISCLAIMER: Much of the above is either tongue in cheek or just me playing devils advocate. I actually agree with both sides of the issue. Though I probably would not send an amp from my bench without a grounded AC cord, I would not judge anyone who did so at the customers request provided that customer had good reason for their decision (like wanting their amp to be exactly vintage correct for value and collectiblity) and was informed on the issue.

[Enzo]

If you provide a service, you either provide that service or you don't.

That is right. But the service I provide is not just doing whatever someone asks me to do. The service I provide is repairing and maintaining a product in proper fashion.

To continue the medical simile, this is like a doctor who will refuse to remove both my kidneys, even if I ask him to.


And I also don;t want to advocate hazy safety concerns to those novice techs lurking, who I don;t want leaving with the message "we don;t need no steenking grounds."

[gbono]

Who hasn't stuck their finger in a lamp socket or tried to pry a burned piece of bread from a toaster with a fork? 120 probably won't kill you.

Yikes, you've go to be kidding right? I have friends who are EMTs and ER docs and they would DISAGREE with you.

Just because you (as an adult in good condition) haven't managed to de-fib your heart while playing with line current'voltage it doesn't mean younger, drunker or unluckier folks haven't.

Like a said there is WAY too much mis-information available to people today.

[Chuck H]

Yikes, you've go to be kidding right? I have friends who are EMTs and ER docs and they would DISAGREE with you.

Just because you (as an adult in good condition) haven't managed to de-fib your heart while playing with line current'voltage it doesn't mean younger, drunker or unluckier folks haven't.

Like a said there is WAY too much mis-information available to people today.

To complete the quote, I said:

120 probably won't kill you. But it can. And of course I always use and replace with grounded AC cords..

If you take into account the word "probably" and look at the rest of the statement my intentions shouldn't seem so ignorant or sinister.

I dislike being quoted out of context. It's a crappy media trick used to provoke a response. Usually contrary to what the person being quoted intended. So you should think about what kind of person does that sort of thing and decide if thats who you are.

Chuck

[gbono]

Never said ignorance or anything sinister was implied - my experience here comes from minor trauma to the need to use CPR on a person in de-fib (BTW, CPR is only successful 40% of the time in such cases). Sorry if you believe you were quoted out of context - no media "trick" here to promote a response other than THINK SAFETY.

[mikeboone]

In case anyone here doesn't believe or understand how serious the issue is, take the time to read this article.

Even if you are a seasoned pro, I'd read it. I do a few times a year.

[pdf64]

If you work on / service equipment then you take on moral and legal responsibility for it's subsequent electrical safety, as far as is reasonably foreseable.
A disclaimer would just prove that you were competent enough to know that ungrounded equipment was dangerous.
Your only morally and legally defensible action is to refuse to work on equipment which the customer refuses to allow you to ground properly.
Legal responsibility means criminal and civil. So if the worst happeded, after you'd served time for the reckless action, you would be open to civil lawsuit. And it's doubtful that your insurance would cover you for such a reckless action. Peter.

[gbono]

Mike,

Can you put up the article again? I believe page 85 is missing - great stuff.

THX

george