Are Illinois caps better the Weber-branded caps?

[Amp Kat]

I"ve had issues with the IC caps going bad too and will not use them. I've had excellent results with the Xicons that AES/CE sells, with Weber's caps, and with F & T's. I've used the Atoms but with their high prices I go elsewhere, and usually use F & T mixed with Xicons or Webers. AES/CE sells both the IC's and the Xicons, and they look similar to each other, but the IC's are grey and rated for 500v on the bigger ones, and the Xicons are blue and rated for 450v.

I'm wondering if this is a recent issue or just an issue with the 22uf 500 volt cap and it's size. I personally haven't had any issues but then again it hasn't been a year yet since I've done those jobs so we'll see. I can say that the Fender Twin Reverb aka Evil Twin is loaded with those so maybe that's it's evilness ? Many of the Peavey Classic amps (old type) with the Solid State preamps have those IC caps in them and are 40+ years old and still going strong so the application and type raise a question of the validity of that perticular cap or maybe a recent trend ?

[bob p]

i've used my share of the TVAs, and my observation has been that they're as reliable as any of the other 6 sigma components. as reliable as they are, i agree that the current pricing paradigm has lessened their appeal. in the big scheme of things, i think that this will eventually cause ampbuilders to rethink the knee-jerk respone of using TVAs in their amp builds.

the only real reason to use TVAs, at least as I see it, is to seamlessly replace an existing cap in a circuit that requires an axial cap footprint. this decision is primarily based upon topology, availability, reliability and cost.

the writing has been written clearly on the wall for some time now -- high voltage axial caps are becoming less and less commonly used in industry, and their use in guitar amps is essentially a niche market. it shouldn't surprise anyone that axial caps will become expensive as demand for the product decreases. likewise, it should surprise anyone that the field of choice of quality available caps will continue to narrow as demand for this sort of item decreases.

in the big scheme of things, unless you're restoring an old amp, there's not really a compelling reason to spec axial caps in a design. even if you are restoring an old amp, there's a compelling reason (price) not to buy caps in the axial footprint if the price differential is significant. going one step further, if you're building a circuit from scratch, its a good idea to consider axial, radial, and snap-in caps.



on the subject of Illinois Caps, i think that they're getting an undeserved bad rap here, because the Illinois caps that I see being resold in the guitar amp market are the wrong caps for the applicaton. nobody should be surprised that when they buy a cap that's spec'd for an intermittent duty cycle (shorter planned service life) and low operating temperature, and they install it in a poorly ventilated environment that is heated beyond the cap's temperature rating, then the electrolyte dries out and the cap experiences a short service life. duh. this isn't a problem that's been caused by a bad cap. its a problem that's been caused by choosing the wrong component for the applicaton.

Just to play the devil's advocate for a minute, Illinois makes some really good, high quality caps -- and they are every bit as reliable as the caps you'll find in the catalogs from CDE or Vishay. I think that the problem here is that guitar amp supply resellers have been looking for a low-cost cap to offer in their stores, so they have selected the bottom tier of caps, keeping their focus primarily on price point rather than quality. It shouldn't surpise anyone that you get what you pay for.

If you look at the manufacturer's catalogs and data sheets, there are IL caps out there that are rated for extremes in heat, ripple current, and life expectancy -- they perform as well as, and they cost every bit as much (if not more) than the comparable caps from CDE and Vishay. the problem is that nobody who resells axial caps for guitar amp applications seems to know about them or care about them, because they don't fit the necessary low price niche.

before bashing a manufacturer for producing garbage, i'd recommend getting a copy of their products catalog, familiarizing yourself with the product line, and understanding how to spec a capacitor for a particular application. there is a significant difference between what some of the sellers have been selling and what a knolwedgeable buyer would buy.

in the big scheme of things, i think its foolish to blame the manufacturer when the end user specifies the wrong component for the job. the problem isn't that IL only makes crappy caps -- there's just no way that one of the major passives manufactuers could stay alive in such a highly competitive industry by producing garbage. instead of just buying on faith from the catalog of a boutique retailer, i'd recommend learning about the caps by reading any of the manufacturer's application guides, choosing the right component for the job, and paying whatever it costs to buy the right component from one of the big electronics distributors. your only other option is to buy what another retailer likes to keep in stock because its profitable, and depending upon the retailer, that may or may not be the best component for the application.

[tedweber]

the writing has been written clearly on the wall for some time now -- high voltage axial caps are becoming less and less commonly used in industry, and their use in guitar amps is essentially a niche market. .

Exactly... and that's why I have been trying to get an Asian company to do some HV elctro's for me. Why? They are the only ones who will talk to us.
At least they are mildly interested. American companies just blow us off... even when I say up front I will spring for the tooling, setup, etc.

I will have 600V electro's in a manageable size eventually... it's a challenge now.


Ted

[bob p]

Ted, your efforts are music to my ears! to get high reliability caps (temperature, ripple current and extended service life) capable of handling high voltages, the only other option is to "stack" lower voltage caps in series. for my high voltage applications i've been using high storage density snap-in and screw terminal caps, wired in series. even with the "small footprint" high storage density electrolytic caps, the multiple cap requirement can create a footprint problem.

[Amp Kat]

I've contacted several US Co.'s also Ted just to inquire about what it would take to get an alotment and I get the same answers as you do. Nada, and many won't even return emails or phone calls.At least one actually told me there was nothing she could do.

[tedweber]

Ted, your efforts are music to my ears! to get high reliability caps (temperature, ripple current and extended service life) capable of handling high voltages, the only other option is to "stack" lower voltage caps in series.

I'm an old ham, and stacking caps is a way of life with us, so I hadn't really thought much about the single HV unit until that past couple of years.

That's when I decided to pursue them for guitar amp builders.

I was sent some 500V units and I've been testing those.


Ted

[Dave Curtis, dB AudioTech]

IC caps suck ass... but they are relatively well available.

I use Atoms 99% of the time, and F+T when I can't get Atoms.

Only when the customer specs IC will I use these.

Ken

The only PS caps I've ever used that turned out to be microphonic were Atoms.

"Holy cow! All these 12AX7s can't be microphonic!"

After that lesson, I found out that PS caps can be microphonic. "Good" ones, at that!

Don't forget to redo the "weatherstipping" under the cap cover on Fenders. If these caps were mounted in such a way that their vibrations couldn't be damped, they would have indeed "sucked ass".

[cminor9]

I read about some guys losing the electrolytic filter caps altogether in favor of (for example) Solen fast caps. The solen caps don't cost that much more.

Any reason this isn't a viable option? I know that the solens in particular are a tad larger and they provide a quicker response (according to the various threads I have read). But are there any reasons to use electrolytics specifically? If that's a stupid question, please forgive me.

[TD_Madden]

Bump #23....

[Amp Kat]

I bought several of these (20uf500V) from Ted and have tested them well over 500 volts at over 200 ma's and they are solid. They are a little different as they are smaller than the IC 22uf 500V and both ends look the same so attention has to be made to correct polarity markings but I had no failures yet and they sound great in fenders. I think the size of the Sprague Atom is grossly overhyped and not a advantage at all for the steep price most are paying right now.

Cminor9 the Solens are very good caps and I've had some experience with them but they are way to large to fit under the hood of a Fender amp but they do last a life time. They are also deemed to being a little lifeless but RG says you can tweak the circuit to compensate for it and surely you can. They would be good in an amp that has lots of extra room and I mean LOTS of extra room but they are good caps.

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

I bought several of these (20uf500V) from Ted and have tested them well over 500 volts at over 200 ma's and they are solid. They are a little different as they are smaller than the IC 22uf 500V and both ends look the same so attention has to be made to correct polarity markings but I had no failures yet and they sound great in fenders. I think the size of the Sprague Atom is grossly overhyped and not a advantage at all for the steep price most are paying right now.

K, have you tried any of the import TAD 22uF-500v caps from MOJO? I have not had a bad one in over 300 pcs.
I wouldn't be a bit surprised to find out they are the same caps as the RUBY 22uF-500v caps or any other relabeled ones for that matter.
A few years ago, I did some beta testing for Weber on those 450v Chinese import caps and seem to remember running them HOT on a Sencore LC103 at over +525v at different loads for a few hours with no real ill effects.
With all untested import stuff, there will always be push back and they don't have much, long time history so who knows what they'll be like after a couple thousand full charge-discharge cycles.

I totally agree about the Sprague filter caps... way way too much money for very little, if anything, extra ... especially after you cut a new one open and have a peek.
I simply do not use the TVAs unless a customer refuses to accept anything else, and then I make them pay through the nose for them.

[Amp Kat]

K, have you tried any of the import TAD 22uF-500v caps from MOJO? I have not had a bad one in over 300 pcs.
I wouldn't be a bit surprised to find out they are the same caps as the RUBY 22uF-500v caps or any other relabeled ones for that matter.
A few years ago, I did some beta testing for Weber on those 450v Chinese import caps and seem to remember running them HOT on a Sencore LC103 at over +525v at different loads for a few hours with no real ill effects.
With all untested import stuff, there will always be push back and they don't have much, long time history so who knows what they'll be like after a couple thousand full charge-discharge cycles.

I totally agree about the Sprague filter caps... way way too much money for very little, if anything, extra ... especially after you cut a new one open and have a peek.
I simply do not use the TVAs unless a customer refuses to accept anything else, and then I make them pay through the nose for them.

Hey someone has to eat that cost and it's not going to be me so I'm with ya big man. I haven't tried those mojo's yet but I did some somewhere that I thought from the picture were different but everytime they come in it's the same shape and form of those IC's and have to think as you do it's just a relabled one. I have stock of both IC and the Webers and it's kinda a crap shoot as to which one goes in and they have really been pretty good lately so I got my fingers crossed.

[cminor9]

Bump #23....

TD Madden, what does that mean?

I just asked a question.

[TD_Madden]

It meant that I'd lke to know the answer to that question as well....

[TD_Madden]

R.G Keen's thread over at PlexiPalace:

http://vintageamps.com/plexiboard/vi...t=electrolytic