OK New issue with JJ tubes!

[nickb]

Quite correct Tom and I apologize. I'll be more careful with my snipping.

I did have a good look through my odds 'n' ends and I didn't find any JJ 6V6s so I can't check. I do have four matched JJ EL34's so I looked at one with Vg1=-10, Vg2=250, Vp=300 gave an Ip of 105mA. The JJ datasheet gives 135mA, an acceptable tolerance IMHO. Not that it necessarily relates to your issue, Bruce.

[wizard333]

CE, but aren't they the NA distributor for JJ, so anyone who sells them here is getting them from there?

Anyone?

I've seen people post on these threads "oh get them from Eurotubes or <insert name here>" instead of CE, but if CE is the NA distributor, then any other place in NA you get them is getting them from CE no? I haven't seen any of those places claiming they do lots of additional testing (I'll claim that, but only because I know CE has been sending me lots of bad JJs for a few years now, which is why I gave up). Also, unless there is something I'm not aware of, there is no wholesale distributor for them other than CE, so if you aren't getting them from CE, you're eating retail pricing (not that CE's prices are any better than retail these days, but that wasn't always true).

[g1]

if CE is the NA distributor, then any other place in NA you get them is getting them from CE no?...there is no wholesale distributor for them other than CE, so if you aren't getting them from CE, you're eating retail pricing (not that CE's prices are any better than retail these days, but that wasn't always true).

CE is "a premier distributor" off JJ according to their website. If they were the exclusive NA distributor I'm pretty sure they would mention it. As far as I know Eurotubes deals direct with JJ.
CE may be the only company that sells wholesale (to their dealers only), but that is their choice, not because they have an exclusive deal with JJ. CE's retail arm is AES (tubesandmore.com) which sells to the public. Most NA wholesale distributors with exclusive lines do not compete with their own dealers. Just guessing but I would think any north american company that wanted to could deal direct with JJ, rather than going through CE. It would probably involve a fairly substantial minimum order.
Back to Eurotubes, internet lore has it that JJ's from them have a lower failure rate than other vendors. I'll guess they test them more thoroughly and (due to Bob's close relationship with JJ) either send them back or receive credit for the defective ones. That's about all it would take to achieve the reputation (for low rejects) Eurotubes seem to have built for themselves. If that rep. is due to superior QC, then good on Bob. Whether you or I agree or disagree with info. presented on their website is kind of a moot point compared to the reliability of their product.

[g1]

In the past, with my other fixed biased 6V6 amps at around 430vdc-440vdc, I've been able to get as much as 22-24 watts out of a pair of JJ6V6s fairly easily.

Have you tried a pair of these "weak" JJ's in one of these amps? How do they compare? This may be a better reference as you have previous results to compare with.
The bizarre thing about all this is that the JJ 6V6 should be higher power if anything. Some are claiming them to be 16W, they are definitely being promoted as able to withstand higher plate voltages, the spec is 500V (pentode).
There is much speculation that they are not a "real" 6V6, but something between 6V6 and 5881.
Billm Audio » EL84 vs. 6V6 vs. 5881
Higher heater current, plate and screen ratings, and more robust plate structure should add up to better power output, not less .

[Enzo]

Agree^^^ two posts up

Especially since the CE web site says exclusive importer for Jensen speakers, in the sentence just prior to the one claiming to be a premier distributor of JJ tubes.

I would expect most major tube sellers to be buying direct from JJ.

[Steve A.]

I didn't mean to imply I could hear a big difference between 10-11 watts and 14-15 watts through any given speaker.

I figured that you were checking the wattage to make sure that it was in line with your marketing. I was wondering if you regularly use any JJ tubes in your amps- have you checked out the JJ 5751's?

Steve

[wizard333]

Alright then, that's good news. I'll direct folks to Eurotubes for JJs and see how that goes. I'll also be trying the Tung Sols in my personal amps and see if I like them. I don't recommend anything I don't/won't personally use.

CE may be the "exclusive" NA distributor for Jensen, but they either must not get a decent deal from Jensen vis-à-vis MAP, or they are eating all the profit, because you cannot make money stocking Jensen speakers at the prices they offer them to dealers (if you match internet pricing, and if you don't, you wont sell them). I love the Jensen Neos, but I can actually make (albeit paltry) money on Eminence or Celestions, none on Jensens so I won't stock them. Wholesale on the Eminence Neos makes a whole lot more sense, in terms of the cost of holding inventory and getting a return on it, than the "wholesale" on the Jensens.

[Steve A.]

I hate... you. You... cut up... smallest possible non-modifiable unit. Leave.

I try to make sure that I do not quote someone out of context and I usually use 3 dots when I cut something out. Unless of course it is the smallest possible non-modifiable unit.

Steve

[Enzo]

Exclusive importer, they say.

You want a better price on the Jensen? Call them and try negotiating, worst that can happen is they say "no." What price breaks are there on lots of 10? Can you combine models for quantity pricing?


In my small shop I have never stocked speakers. I could tie up a couple thousand dollars in inventory, even at "good" prices, and still not have what the next three guys want.

[wizard333]

Yes I've tried to negotiate on 10, etc., they wont budge.

I stock certain speakers because I get asked what I recommend. So if Joe Blow walks in and wants X, odds are I don't have X, but if someone asks me what I'd recommend, I have that. I'm not interested in trying to be a retail speaker shop, but I will recommend certain things for certain applications based on what I personally use and have come to trust. Except neo jensens, which I like and would recommend, but I'd at best break even or more likely lose $5-$10 a speaker to match net pricing.

[Steve A.]

I stock certain speakers because I get asked what I recommend. So if Joe Blow walks in and wants X, odds are I don't have X, but if someone asks me what I'd recommend, I have that. I'm not interested in trying to be a retail speaker shop, but I will recommend certain things for certain applications based on what I personally use and have come to trust. Except neo jensens, which I like and would recommend, but I'd at best break even or more likely lose $5-$10 a speaker to match net pricing.

What you are doing makes a lot of sense. It sounds like you are stocking just the speakers that you would not mind keeping if you never sold them. However, I don't think that you should have to match internet prices unless you were already doing enough work for a customer to create enough revenue and profit to cover it. I think that the whole concept of VAR (Value Added Retailer) has slipped from our vocabulary in the midst of the massive price war created by internet competition.

If the speaker turns out to be defective a VAR would typically handle the return and maybe even give the customer a replacement right then and there if he had one in stock. The big companies (MF, GC, Amazon etc.) have good return policies- they will usually email you a prepaid label to return the defective item to them. [With GC you also have the option to return a defective item to your local store- one big advantage that MF does not have- yet! Since GC owns MF it seems logical that they should take returns although they wouldn't give a refund or GC store credit.]

It is really hard to compete with Musician's Friend who usually offers free shipping with orders that meet their minimum. Shipping has always been the big bugaboo with mail order speakers. I'd love to order speakers from Guitar Warehouse but the shipping charges are a deal breaker for me.

Steve Ahola

[wizard333]

I don't think that you should have to match internet prices unless you were already doing enough work for a customer to create enough revenue and profit to cover it. I think that the whole concept of VAR (Value Added Retailer) has slipped from our vocabulary in the midst of the massive price war created by internet competition.

In a perfect world that would be true, but everyone is so strapped out now with the economic terrorism going on, and musicians always expect everything for free. I found that people would want to pick my brain for an hour about speakers or pickups, then go to get them online for $5 less. Ok. So I charge consultation fees at shop rates now unless I have a good relationship with the person I'm talking to. Problem solved, I'm tired of being an unpaid sales consultant for drop ship online retailers.

[Enzo]

I think the context matters. If you are in the business of selling speakers, then the consumer expects competitive pricing. In my shop we do repairs, I really don't consider myself a parts store. I will sell a part, sure. But If I get an amp repair and it needs a speaker, I will install one, sell it at a fair markup. I am not competing with MF. Hey, it is fine to have a different business model from mine.

I think of a bottle of beer. I can walk into a bar and pay $4. (Or whatever, I have not been in a bar in decades) I can buy the exact same beer at the grocery store for $1. This is not news or a mystery, yet the bars are full every night of people who did not decide to go home and drink to save $3 a bottle.


I am going to use my parts for repairs, I am not going to diagnose the amp, tell the guy a parts list and let him go source stuff and bring it back. That said, if a guy already has a speaker he likes, I'll install it. But I don't think the average repair customer is thinking he can buy transistors cheaper than I sell them. If I were selling transistors outright, it would be different.

[wizard333]

But most guitarists know how to source a speaker from MF, most wouldn't know what to do with Mouser's site.

I had a guy today tell me my price on EL84s was too high and he could "get them online" for $30 a matched quad, and was going to do that instead. Really? CE charges more than that wholesale, before they stick you for shipping, and boy do they stick you. They upcharge shipping at least 100%.

Interestingly, the guy is also a pickup winder and sells pickups that cost about $5-$10 in parts and 30 minutes to wind for over $100, and at the same time he was giving me attitude about not wanting to sell tubes at a 25% loss, he's trying to sell me pickups. I'll leave it to the reader to draw their own conclusions.

[eschertron]

I had a guy today tell me my price on EL84s was too high and he could "get them online" for $30 a matched quad, and was going to do that instead.

Where's he gonna get them? Ebay? If they're all defective, that would be matched, right?