Critical thinking... Or lack there of

[Chuck H]

I read soo many posts where a novice is having problems with their amp so they, for example, replace all the resistors on the board. Then they post something like "My amps power was fading in and out so I replaced all the resistors but it still doesn't work", or worse yet "and now it doesn't work at all".

I'm Just trying to understand this mentality.

Do these people, upon noticing that their car is running rough, go under the hood and start randomly replacing things like the alternator and the emergency brake cable only to be left scratching their heads? No! And working on a car when you don't have a clue is much less likely to electrocute you.

And we always step up and try to help if only because we're interested in this sort of thing. Often getting indignant responses or some opinion a guy they know gave them that is contrary to our good advice. And still we try as if there is any help for these types. You can nearly always tell on the first post too. And still we try.

Just wanted to bounce this peeve off people who might understand the frustration.

Chuck

[Wilder Amplification]

Welcome to my world. Throw this in with all the people who would much rather assume than find out the truth.

[defaced]

Often getting indignant responses or some opinion a guy they know gave them that is contrary to our good advice. And still we try as if there is any help for these types. You can nearly always tell on the first post too. And still we try.

Yep. Gotta love it. My motto for helping people on forums has always been "effort in = results out". I'm doing this for free. If you can't put some work into solving your problem, I can't be bothered to help you. Conversely, if you're working on it and report back info and such, I'll make sure I do all I can to help. What's that saying the Marines use "earned. never given"? Yea, I like that.

And for those that help me (and there have been many), I always say thank you and if I'm working on continuing a design that started in the public eye, I post up schematics/layouts for the benefit of the forum. Think of it like open source amp hardware or more like the DIY Stompbox community.

[loudthud]

I often think these posts are from teenagers who lack parental supervision.

[Enzo]

I like to think I know when I don;t know something. Sometimes I am wrong, but usually I know when I need to do some research.

One mindset I see over and over and over, even in some experienced techs, is the idea that a problem is always a bad part. The notion of a bad solder joint or a broken pc trace is completely off the radar, often even after being pointed out.

Critical thinking is something not taught in schools. Should be, but ain;t.

I make an effort to help people learn that through troubleshooting. Whether I succeed or not, I try to teach someone how to troubleshoot a problem, with the idea that the approach applies to any problem. COntrasting that to just suggesting parts to change.

A pet peeve of mone is the Gerald Weber school of mods. A picture of the part board with instructions change this part to some other value, and move this wire to here. The result may sound glorious, but the person who did this has zero idea what he actually did in the circuitry. And zero idea how to do the same mod in some other model amp.

My amp does XXX, how do I fix it? We could just put up a list of parts, and tell them to start replacing, and check after each part. Of course they would learn nothing.

What resistor do I change to adjust my bias? It ain;t about the resistor, kid, it is about the circuit. Here is how voltage dividers work, your circuit IS one, now we change the ratio.


My amp does XXX, or doesn't do XXX, must be the transformer, eh? When did the transformer become the cause of every freaking thing that goes wrong with amplifiers? I have to admit, my own dear departed mother was convinced that ANYTHING that ever went wrong with her TV set was due to the picture tube. "Well, they haven't perfected those picture tubes yet."

[Wilder Amplification]

What irritates me to no end is when a guy comes onto a forum with XXX problem, a tech walks him through the troubleshooting, the guy ends up fixing it due to the help of the tech, then thinks he's somehow qualified to give out tech info when he couldn't even figure out how to fix his own amp!

I see this on LOTS of forums throughout. We've even got guys operating boutique amp shops who can't even so much as read a schematic...let alone debug their own build without having to email an experienced tech to help 'em.

[R.G.]

I do more effects stuff than amps, and it's common to see someone post "which end of the diode has the band on it?" one week, then be talking about "designing" an effect the next week, then have a web site where they refer to themselves in the Imperial "We" the next week.

Design? DESIGN? Er, this design you speak of... what is that, exactly?

I'm getting numb to it. I just get a flash of "The Sorcerer's Apprentice" when I read them.

My favorite is the continual sleet of "My amp doesn't work any more. It's the output transformer, isn't it?"

[octal]

My favorite is the continual sleet of "My amp doesn't work any more. It's the output transformer, isn't it?"

Well, you can always reply "Yes, it's probably the output transformer. Why not try a Mercury Magnetics one? They're only like $250 and I'm sure it will fix the problem."

[teemuk]

Welcome to Internet guys.

My pet peeve are they folks that come in asking questions concerning something pretty much 101 in something, like impedance matching (e.g. how, why, and can they) or perhaps about operation of some basic circuit like a RC filter, or perhaps plain OpAmp or common cathode gain stage. Surely, most of the answers could be found within one minute of either searching the forum or Google - or perhaps grabbing a good book of analog electronics design ...but no... instead ask the forums and recieve 20 or so different answers, of which some are even incorrect.

[Chuck H]

instead ask the forums and recieve 20 or so different answers, of which some are even incorrect.

Well, not so much around here. But go to some of the gear head forums where they have no business discussing circuits, but they often do, and some half baked wanna be tech that knows more lore than truth is always spewing some half baked advice. Often it's some crack that's actually stopped in here a couple of times and been run outta town for being ignorant and indignant.

Chuck

P.S. "Often it's some crack that's actually stopped in here a couple of times and been run outta town for being ignorant and indignant." One or the other is O.K. (you guys know who you are ) If your going to be indignant you have to know your $h!t. And if your going to be ignorant you ought to be respectful.

[Robert M. Martinelli]

Hmmm...
I always (and always will) think about this forum as one of the last good places on earth, but yes, I must admit the attitude of some guys asking for help sometimes puzzles me (which can be read as an euphemism for "p!sses me off")....sometimes I tend to think, like Loudthud, that they're (or act like) teenagers lacking parental supervision, but this is not a good reason for doing what they do.....think about the laziness that shines through some of their posts....as R.G. says they ask the same questions without doing any research beforehand, so the same questions are asked again and again and again 'til the end of time.....not to mention the (luckily few) impolite ones that, after getting some help, lack the simple manners of letting all the guys who helped 'em know how things turned out in the end, or even failing to say a simple "thanks, mates".

OK - enough grumbling for today....but it's good to "open the safety valve" once in a while and let the excess pressure out...

Let's get back to "business" (the quotation marks are mandatory, of course, since none of us is getting a single penny out of this, just the sense of fulfillment that can be found in helping others, which is priceless and outweighs all the cons IMHO).

- Rant over -

All of you good friends out there, take care

Cheers

Bob

[Enzo]

OH as in, " That is MISTER asshole to you."


My buddy told me it was probably just a resistor. Well then, why didn't your buddy fix it?

Your amp is fixed, come get it. Oh, what was it? AN open resistor in the phase inverter. I see. SO it's fixed? Yes. And then my favorite question. "Did you plug it in and try it?" No I just hooked it up to the magic tester machine for a half hour and walked away.

Your amp doesn;t have a bias adjustment. But it HAS to, I was told you MUST ABSOLUTELY adjust the bias whenever you change tubes. BIAS IS THE MOST CRITICAL THING IN ALL THE WORLD!

I realize they have no idea, but I find it amusing when they don;t realize the scope of the question. "Tell me how electronics works." WHy is there air?


My amp has six preamp tubes, but I can only find three of them. No, your amp has three preamp tubes, they each have two sections inside. No, I HAVE the schematic, I can see them here. SIlly me, then maybe they hid some of them in the speaker. Go look there.

I wish I had saved it now... I was on another board, and someone had a problem, I made some introductory suggestion about op amps. Now I don't claim to know everything, you guys start talking load lines and such and my brain hazes over. But I do know enough to get by. This guy doesn't understand my point and responds, "Oh gee Enzo, I appreciate your response, but apparently you have very limited experience in this area." And bless his heart, he referred me to a couple tutorial web sites. To his credit, not all that long after, he posted again to say, "Oh, I have seen a few more of your posts, and it looks like you DO have some experience." Thanks, I feel better.

[Enzo]

And I think you are right Bob.

SO many times, not the slightest effort at research has been made. How many times has someone asked for a schematic that I went to Fender.com or wherever and linked to it. Or identified a part by entering its number into google. Where can I get the schematic for a hafler XXX? From Hafler.

I think most of us appreciate a thank you now and then. I do see a certain segment of the - I assume - younger posters who don;t get the distinction between a bunch of people voluntarily helping, and some sort of free service.

[Chuck H]

Then there's the thankless greedy trolls that pop up shamelessly every so often. None I really hold a grudge against enough to kick 'em under the buss. I will say that one rhymes with kldguitar.

Regardless of his agenda and refusal to do his own research on the most basic questions I still try to help sometimes and I have never seen him thank me or anyone. Only once did I ever see him post to another persons Q and I gave him kudos and told him to keep it up followed by 'welcome to the forum'... But he never tried to help anyone again and failed to thank me on his very next Q post. I think he's either a borderline idiot or he's a psych student f@#%ing with me.

[dai h.]

thought about this sort of thing and maybe there should be some automated response where a database is queried and relevant (or -looking) posts are listed in an automated "machine answer post" as the initial reply. If the answer shows up in the automated reply (threads that come up with relevant info), then the person has a harder time saying "they couldn't find anything", etc. 'Course that is what a search engine does, isn't it? Maybe it could be a nicer way of saying, "Go [blank]ing Google!".