Different brands of power tubes!?!

[Leo_Gnardo]

[QUOTE=Jazz P Bass;300181]

Note to self - must be more disciplined - when that box o tubes arrives spend the next 3 days plugging them into amps, listening & looking, and even smelling for trouble.
QUOTE]
That is a good time to 'sort' them for how much idle current they draw (at one set bias voltage).
Matching.

FWIW I get mine from Magic Parts (Ruby) & their matching is excellent, and matched for gain not just emission. TAD has a similar program. CE/Antique also do good matching IME. Other rebranders/vendors may vary and usually match for emission only. Always a good idea to test on arrival anyway in case of damage in shipping. Of course if you're buying bulk, untested, yes definitely take a day off to match up pairs & quads, also listen to pre tubes for aardvark noises. Can someone arrange an 8 day week for me?

I made a test stand for pre tubes to test gain, also have an old Heath W4 "hi fi" amp I can use to emission-test output tubes of allsorts, but this last could stand some refinement as it's self-bias only. Should add a "fixed bias" maybe with a few bias voltage steps so I can test power tubes more effectively. Another project that's been "on the back burner" for how many years.

[km6xz]

Interesting thread. Sitting here with a slight be of "told you so" after being raked over the coals by not buying into the fairy dust mania surrounding tubes and other items that have high ratios of marketing to fact.
Ruby's testing is in a custom made box that runs the tube at a fixed bias, triode mode and anode potential of 250volts if I remember right, and a relative value read from a digital meter measuring plate current. It worked well. I repaired it a few times over the years. He also has a clock drive trip hammer pinger for getting microphonic readings to grade preamp tubes. A rotary switch connected the various tubes to be tested to a vu bar graph meter. As simple as that was, it worked really well. Never got an out of the box microphonic from them.

Regarding the grail of "tone", it has been a subject more more of interest to bedroom rockstars and weekend warriors that skilled working musicians. Working with some of the greats, we got the sound of the instrument recordings that were desired for the song, not tone for tone sake. BB King came to record and brought only his guitar. Sitting on his chair, he politely asked the second engineer to plug him in. "Which amp? " He replied "whatever is good for you". The closest amp was a very early Marshall 45 and he got his "tone" which all the better players do, from their playing. Some iconic sounding players use a number of different amps during the course of a record production and fans can't tell the difference, and casual listeners surely can't. But both groups can tell a good song and if it sounds good.
Whenever Carlos Santana would record, when available John McEnroe would come to hang out. Both friends were envious of the other's career. He was always being asked for tips on tennis of course and he suggested not paying so much attention to equipment. He was asked if he really used the endorsement rackets that can be purchased in the store, since he could play anything be wanted. He said, of course, it does not matter which so why not make the manufacturer happy. He said on any given day any top pro could beat anyone else or each other with a racket strung with spaghetti. It made a real impression on me and noticed the same in the studio, some players got endorsement contracts with second tier brands and actually used them in the studio and got whatever they needed out of them. Between the recording chops in the room and the player's style coming through loud and clear, the focus was always on the song and what complemented it. Tone was not discussed other than in terms of a specific song.

I have to chuckle when beginners are so caught up in nuances of gear, tubes, cables, effects, modeling amps and forget to learn how to say something worthwhile with their playing. I am a firm believer that lots of effects and modeling ruins a young player's chances to ever develop their own style. A marketable style is more important than "tone" by several orders of magnitude when it comes to getting to be a pro with a lasting career.
Another thing I have mentioned but was rebuffed by undistinguished amateurs on the forum: The listener's preference for a tone is learned by its association with a song they are attached to. Not the other way around. Good or bad tone never made a song or record popular, but some new sound styles have quickly been adapted to if heard in a song which they liked. Most players have it totally backwards, thinking their success depends on their sound. No, it doesn't. It depends on the songs and performances.
The best guitar amp is the one that is reliable and flexible in letting a player express something without getting in the way.

The tests in the video are pretty crude but having a studio to play with allowed testing using good double blind methods. That disappointed more than a few aspiring cable, power cord, amp, mic and monitor makers or salesmen when their hype proved to be just that. We tested tubes and lots of tweaky hi-end hifi snake oil with more scientific methods. The one thing that was a consistent result, the more outlandish the claim by the promoter, the harder their egos would fall. Most of the makers wanting to get endorsements or place an item in the studio had never really tested their device, but fully believed their own hype. The response to being unmasked was either depression or anger. Sort of like The Amazing Randi and his debunking supernaturalists. They really believe their own shit, and never tested it.

[Chuck H]

Aw Stan, your just jaded from years of dealing with artistic sorts and car salesman types Truth be told, I have no idea how some of the smart and sensitive people I know get through it! Really! Not a joke!

And I'll agree with the above. If not 100%. That's only because MOST of the time good players do use good gear and sound better for it. My point is just that it doesn't truly NOT matter. And I also think good gear offers more freedom to be creative and develop skills. The big picture just doesn't go entirely in one direction. "It's the artist, not the gear." or "It's the gear, not the artist." And I do think it leans toward the artist. As evidenced by my posts. But I shall NEVER think good gear isn't important. I don't think your that extreme. But you really only backed one horse in your post. So JM2C.

On another note... When are we going to be buying all out tubes from you??? Or did that prospectus not wash out I thought your mission statement was great. But that's the opinion of someone who knows something about the product. Your average customer may not appreciate the extra work or even know how to use the extra information. Tube geeks are a pretty small demographic to pitch.

[km6xz]

Hi Chuck,
The gear preferred by serious working musicians have a different priority than hobbyists. For example great gear for gigging is more oriented towards being very reliable, predictable and set up for stability. In that respect there is a lot of concern over the quality of the gear. But the tone discussions argued about by hobbyists just is not a big factor. So good musicians do want good equipment but what they consider good and what a weekend warrior considers good are from different criteria sheets.

I do have tubes here but I do not ship them outside of Russia. The volume is not high, I get 2,000 at a time which is the minimum for OEM sourcing. The costs of shipping internationally in anything less than fractional containers is just too high for low cost items like tubes. I am trying to find someone to take over since I have two other new projects cooking, one of them being taking over one of the largest club venues in the city with a stage and restaurant. The restaurant sections seats 450 and the club area can handle 1000 for concerts, in a very modern facility that is going to get a whole new design, decor and business plan. The owner contacted me for advice on their sound system which a promoter said was the reason the club was not popular. I visited and wrote a report that she was not expecting, a 14 page detailed plan that overcame the real problem, she did not need a new sound system she needed a complete new business concept and staff. Initially she was angry but later decided I knew what I was talking about so we agreed to her renting facilities to a management company....me... to operate it like hotels work with a property division that has the tenant of an operating entity as a separate business. She keeps the day time and lunch operations and my company takes over at night from 6pm to 6am.

Another project is variable light transmission film for windows, a solid polymer, for controlling transparency for large business centers and cultural venues. I am working with an Italian architect who asked me to design a system around some unproven prototype sample of the material. I did, and it has impressed some influential designers who are interested in adopting this technology. It will save one building about break ground, heating and cooling costs around $1million a year.
These are besides the tour company supplying shore excursions on a visa free basis for cruise ship passengers. Last season, we hosted 46,000 cruise passengers for intensive 2 day tours. That is my main activity for the last 8 years here.

And of course my small repair shop for pro audio that is growing. I do this mainly because I like bench work as part hobby/part business. So I need to trim away the time consuming projects, or at least shed day to day oversight of them. I still need time to go out and play at night.

[Leo_Gnardo]

I have to chuckle when beginners are so caught up in nuances of gear, tubes, cables, effects, modeling amps and forget to learn how to say something worthwhile with their playing.

In the modern day, so true! Back when I started, dinosaurs still walked the earth. And I got myself a $125 used Fender Jazz Bass & put Rotosound Round Wounds on, and I was set. Kids these days, adults too, think they can "buy their way" to success because they have exactly the same rig as Eric Ray Hendrix or whoever.

A couple days ago you mentioned some "big time" producer who just couldn't get his sound unless you had the control room monitors connected with $5000 cables. What a laff riot. I'd love to know who that was.

The best guitar amp is the one that is reliable and flexible in letting a player express something without getting in the way.

True that too.

Thanks for your posts Stan. This one, the next one, and all the rest. And best of luck on your new business ventures.

BTW I sent you a PM a couple weeks ago. I have a customer, a young jazzer who works out of 2 locations, Harlem NY and St. Petersburg Russia. He has some amps in Russia he'd like to have sorted out. Fenders, maybe some others. If you don't want to deal with it I'll understand. If you do, just PM me with your email & I'll pass it on to Ilya. Please let me know either way.

All the best! LG

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

Ok... Figuring that "you don't get anything if you don't ask" I wrote to thetubestore to let them know that one of their tubes failed right out of the box with proper bias in a known working amp. And I conceded that I did not plug them in within the warranty period. But I also said that lacking a favorable response, I wouldn't be using their services again. They responded by suggesting that the tubes may have been damaged in shipping or while in my care and then offered to sell me another tube... FOR MORE THAN THE PRICE ON THEIR WEBSITE!!! I'll take that for a slight. I've ordered from them twice. Of the ten preamp tubes, one was noisy, one was hummy and another was grossly microphinic. I had no problems with eight EL84's and then this recent issue with a shorting EL34. That figures at 20% of the tubes they've sold me being bad!!! I don't believe the preamp tubes are tested beyond plugging into a tester, no listening test. Fine. Tubes selected for balance or low microphics should command a premium. But noisy, hummy and grossly microphonic tubes should be culled. I don't believe power tubes are tested beyond plugging them in and recording current draw (to match idle current, as in "matched" tubes!?!). Their poor character for slighting me, poor warranty that doesn't allow for inventory, lack of adequate testing and the fact that they sold me bad tubes twice in a row will keep me far away from this vendor.

I hope this post doesn't create a conflict of interest for site ads. Rant over.

I'll never buy a single thing from them again due to nearly the exact same experience!!! They sold me tubes with a 35-40% failure rate. Utter garbage and I think they should be avoided.

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

[QUOTE=Leo_Gnardo;300185]

FWIW I get mine from Magic Parts (Ruby) & their matching is excellent, and matched for gain not just emission. TAD has a similar program. CE/Antique also do good matching IME. Other rebranders/vendors may vary and usually match for emission only. Always a good idea to test on arrival anyway in case of damage in shipping. Of course if you're buying bulk, untested, yes definitely take a day off to match up pairs & quads, also listen to pre tubes for aardvark noises. Can someone arrange an 8 day week for me?

I made a test stand for pre tubes to test gain, also have an old Heath W4 "hi fi" amp I can use to emission-test output tubes of allsorts, but this last could stand some refinement as it's self-bias only. Should add a "fixed bias" maybe with a few bias voltage steps so I can test power tubes more effectively. Another project that's been "on the back burner" for how many years.

CE has recently told me that they will not warranty tubes for microphonics as the tubes operate according to their stated parameters!! WTF!? Out of the last 20 pairs, I have 4 matched pairs of JJ6L6GCs now that are unusable.

[Leo_Gnardo]

I'll never buy a single thing from them again due to nearly the exact same experience!!! They sold me tubes with a 35-40% failure rate. Utter garbage and I think they should be avoided.

I'd like to rename them thetroublestore.

I wasn't aware of the new CE policy on microphonics. If the policy means, we tested for emission & gan, and the tube rattles then too bad, that's a turn for the worse. Then again, some JJ power tubes have been troublesome from day 1. I've had good luck with JJ 6V6, KT88, EL84 and occasional 7591. Seen too many funky JJ 6L6 and EL34 & variants. Wish JJ could get their QC together. JJ have shown they can make good tubes if they want to. Report from Magic Parts a couple years ago "JJ sent us a box of 200 5AR4. 199 were bad." I take Stan's advice and get Magic's Ruby China 5AR4. Haven't had a failure in years.

I'd like to propose a sales outlet for duds, callin' it "Ratleigh Tubes." Our quality is in our title. Again,
Q what do you do with tubes that are defective?
A Target practice.

[trem]

I probably do not buy the number of tubes that some of you guys. Over the years I have bought several AX7, and power type tubes from them and did not have a problem.
But more than anyone, I buy from Doug's Tubes if he has what I need.
best

[Chuck H]

I don't buy that many tubes. That's the thing. I make the odd custom order or refurb an amp for someone I become friendly with. Of course I retube my own amps and sometimes I do the odd design project. But I buy maybe ten to fifteen tubes a year! If I were buying a lot of tubes I would have known better by now and have purchased from a better vendor. In fact, the low number of tubes I use is one reason I have trouble with the ones I buy. I'm just not in the game enough to have info other than what's available on line. If I were using a hundred tubes a year I could write off a few bad tubes as part of the process. But failing consistency in the industry makes it a greater loss when you need to re learn what works and what doesn't with each purchase.

Worse yet... My personal amp uses EL84's. I knew a guy that, for whatever reason, had a box of fifty slightly used EL84's in matched pairs and quads. I bought them cheap. I also made a good deal with someone else for twenty RCA 12ax7's that were all non microphonic and tested new. And when I was in the bay area, California I haunted the salvage electronics stores and scored A LOT of good tubes of many types. I worked off all those tubes for a long time. By the time I got back in the game I was utterly ignorant to what works and what doesn't. I only had the internet for information. No experience with current production or vendors. Ouch!

[km6xz]

Yes, the South Bay Area was great for the electronic flea markets once a month where the best test gear, parts and contacts could be made on starting at sunup, or other in Livermore. I kept a VW van in working order just for those twice monthly trips down the swap meets. The was in the heyday of the tech part of Silicon Valley, that was more focused on electronics than software and when some of those companies started shifting direction or closing down in the late 80s and 90s, lab type test gear and exotic parts were going for a song, and much of it ended up in the swap meet parking lots where 500-1000 selling booths had everything you could think of. I outfitted 24 fully equipped HP/Tektronix benches for my shop that way, with spares for everything.

Why not form a trade association between builders and shops and pool money to buy in bulk from China? A batch of 2000 12AX7s would be around $3.25 each and 6L6's would be $5, 6550 for $8-9. Less if untested and unmatched, white boxed. I was buying tested and then untested since I was testing anyway and found the failure rate was lower than I expected.

[Chuck H]

That's a well considered idea. Members here that buy bulk could get a better rate and guys like me that don't buy bulk could buy a "share". It might require some sort of form that logged in members could subscribe to. Then, when the form and order are full, a purchase is made. The only rub is that someone may feel slighted if they receive a disproportionate number of bad tubes. Also, orders would need to be pre paid so that no one is holding up the show when it's go time to purchase. And someone of particularly excellent character would need to act as distributor to others on the PO. Maybe I'm not the optimistic business man that you are, but that all sounds like something could go hinky along the way. I'm open to a better model though. I see no reason why a large enough group, like ours, shouldn't try to develop a sort of "not for profit" tube distributor for it's members. Whomever does the distribution (and possibly testing and culling) would need to get paid something for their time. But the tube prices and quality should still be favorable.

[Joe L]

lab type test gear and exotic parts were going for a song, and much of it ended up in the swap meet parking lots where 500-1000 selling booths had everything you could think of. I outfitted 24 fully equipped HP/Tektronix benches for my shop that way, with spares for everything.

With the bad economy, there is lots of Tek/Hp stuff on Ebay. I'm retiring June 1st so I've built up a bench at the house with Tek, Fluke and a Sencor LZR meter. Total spent - $400.

Why not form a trade association between builders and shops and pool money to buy in bulk from China? A batch of 2000 12AX7s would be around $3.25 each and 6L6's would be $5, 6550 for $8-9. Less if untested and unmatched, white boxed. I was buying tested and then untested since I was testing anyway and found the failure rate was lower than I expected.

The guys over at the SLOClone forums have done that quite a few times with boards, transformers, chassis -etc. It works very well if you have a bunch of guys with the same interests and one that will do the legwork. Finding the one is the problem!

As far as tubes, I am definitely in the consumer volume category so I've gotten most of mine from the bombastic Lord Valve of alt.guitar.amps Usenet fame. His prices are not the lowest but he does test the heck out of them. He claims a 24 hour burn-in and it does make a difference on bias drift. I had a pair of EH EL34s mentioned previously that popped the screens on the first loud chord and he took them back with no lip.

..Joe L
KE5Y

[bob p]

There are two kind of people on the internet -- those who think it would be a good idea for someone else to coordinate a group buy, and those who have already been coordinator for a group buy. I fall into the later group, having coordinated a transformer group buy here 10 years ago and having lived to tell the story. Although I think the idea of forming a co-op to buy tubes sounds appealing at first, the whole process very complicated and is fraught with perils. For the coordinator the experience ends up like walking through a minefield, only to be greeted by someone who is hostile when you finally emerge on the other side. When I think about going through all of the trouble to save maybe $5 or $10 per tube, buying at retail or at a small discount from a distributor doesn't sound all that bad to me.

[Tom Phillips]

++1
In my experience group buys should be limited to a maximum of two individuals who already have a good working relationship.