Different brands of power tubes!?!

[trem]

I may not understand the whole process.
But I can see if it is up to ONE guy to coordinate everything, and then SHIP the product to each participant..... it could be a hard and Thankless Job.
best

[Steve Conner]

Now you know why distributors mark the product up so much! It's danger money for putting up with all the crap from customers. :-)

[bob p]

^^^ That or they just have to mark up the price of the good tubes to cover the unacceptably high rate of duds. A co-op would have to do the same thing.

[km6xz]

There are two kind of people on the internet -- those who think it would be a good idea for someone else to coordinate a group buy, and those who have already been coordinator for a group buy.

There is at least a third type who sees it as a way to get something done that benefits himself more than the hassle detracts from it. I have been in the latter group before and make sure that I have enough benefit to make it happen right.

When I think about going through all of the trouble to save maybe $5 or $10 per tube, buying at retail or at a small discount from a distributor doesn't sound all that bad to me.

A shop in an urban area that goes through 1000 tubes a year, might not think it is so much trouble to save $1000 for so little difference in current work load.

I have a good case in point about co-ops. I live where no parts are available that are factory OEM. You can't get a knob or a pot for a common amp and forget any cosmetic parts or ASICs or a key for a keyboard. The manufacturers will not send parts because they have a national distributor but all 3 main distributors think sales increase if they make customer service and support unavailable. There are no commercial shops in this, potentially the second largest market after the US.
So I had the choice of not getting into it or find a way to get parts. Parts can be found if there are good connections with warranty stations in the US who want to earn some extra money but shipping is so costly that only really large orders make sense. It is hard to explain to a customer how it was a great deal that his new $1 knob cost $75 in shipping.
So I posed the idea to a store which has warranty status but no repair shop. I suggested orders through them weekly in the $1000 range. They were interested as long as minimum work was involved.
I let it be known around the country that I was starting a service association that would be open to only the best most honest tech in a region or city, who like all others had been locked out of starting a registered business due to lack of parts. The idea was to have techs go the site and log parts requests by manufacturer and part number. These would generate the weekly order, by aggregating the various requests from techs spread over a 11 time zone expanse. As a benefit of being accepted into the association they would have access to a database of about 60,000 old repair so they could search by model and defect to see what experienced techs did to solve problems and what parts were needed. They would also have exclusive access for their region or city to get the parts needed to start a real business.
I figured that my parts order would be quite reasonable if it was down to $1 per order in shipping instead of $75-150 per order.
I set a few rules to make it work.
1, There is a strong incentive to obey the rules and conduct business ethically(violation would mean being banned from getting parts)
2, It requires a deposit on hand before full membership is granted so orders are not delayed or made complicated waiting for money transfers
3, Shops will have to place orders by correct manufacturer part number, although my database about 15,000 of the most common manufacturer parts referenced to generic part numbers, but those generic parts should not be ordered in this system. There are lots of major parts houses here for ICs and transistors, surface mount cap, inductors and resistors so the system will kick out orders for parts that have generic numbers listed.
4, the shops have to accept responsibility for any errors in entering part numbers since there is no way to return parts.

For the first few weeks of running the system there were some bugs in my software but volume was low enough to allow fixing bugs without big problems. After 3 weeks, we are already up to the $1000 per order level, triple the first week. It took a week to gather 19 techs who used credit cards to submit their deposit, a number more are thinking about it or requested access but they have not sent the deposit.
This is the first step on a longer range plan to build a support network here. Another step will be doing warranty work covering the work of other member shops and offering a real warranty on new and used gear sales they can sell. Currently the factory warranty is useless.
All this was put together very quickly but I had been thinking about it for about a year. I wrote about it on this forum a while back which it was still in the idea phase.
It might work because there is someone who knows how to work in this field and can organize it. When we get to 50 members and $2000 a week in orders, it is time to hire a part time administrator to process and send the orders out once a week.
I get a database of parts requested so will order more than needed of repeat ordered items so an inventory will be built up that lowers my own time spent on repairs. Having the needed parts on hand makes a big difference in repair profits, customer satisfaction, lower frustration, space and time chasing parts.
We have a lot of brands represented by the source and will be seeking more sources.
I have been selling the tubes on the internet on Russian forums and through just a few stores but maybe expand to include common user replaceable parts. I do not want to be in the parts business but this model works for my main purpose which is to get parts for my own use. A non-profit association could be formed to handle the whole parts end and I can back out and just get parts for this city of 7,000,000. Being the only repair shop in town that can actually do it, and for a reasonable price should be profitable.

[Chuck H]

All true. Which is why I said:

Maybe I'm not the optimistic business man that you are, but that all sounds like something could go hinky along the way.

Still, It would be nice to get something other than shipping from the distributors that are operating. Cull the bad tubes! I read a Gerald Weber article once where he mentions someone that was using the Siemens EL34's plugging them into a test amp and giving them a sharp smack with a mallet to find the ones that were prone to shorting. As those tubes were apt to do. Whatever it takes. If I'm paying a distributor a 4 to 5X premium I shouldn't be getting tubes that pop instantly in a working circuit, tubes that hum, are noisy or grossly microphonic over twenty percent of the time. Another common complaint is that the tubes no longer spec to the old data! Part of Stan's business model was that he would put a line of tubes through a battery of tests and amend the data sheets for accuracy. Great idea. Imagine having accurate specifications for the part your designing around!?! As it is, we have 6V6's that'll take well over 420Vp, 12ax7's that can't take the spec'd heater to cathode differential, 7591's that are more like 6L6's and big bottle EL34's that are sort of like 6550's!?! All with spec sheets that are recycled from the old data used in the 60's. Somehow we accept this AND pay a 5X markup for bad QC!?! They've got us by the short hairs.

[bob p]

In a nutshell, it sounds like Stan found a grey market solution to his problem with authorized distributors.

[bob p]

There is at least a third type who sees it as a way to get something done that benefits himself more than the hassle detracts from it.

I'm not sure that that's necessarily a third type. Anyone I know who's ever coordinated a group buy didn't go through all of the pain because he had some compelling altruistic motive to give a good deal to somebody else while obtaining nothing in return. I guess that a more straightforward way to say that would be to say that everyone I know who's ever coordinated a group buy did it because he thought the benefits to himself as part of the group would outweigh the hassle. IMO it's the only reason that anyone would ever bother coordinating a group buy -- to use other people to increase his buying power to decrease his personal acquisition cost for the widget.

You're right though -- a co-op is a good model for people who aren't' sufficiently capitalized to swing business deals on their own. I guess everyone is forced find creative solutions in your neck of the woods.

[Chuck H]

We need a "Stan" in the US!!! All the Stan's are in Russia!!! Someone willing to step up to a small amount of accountability for the profit they extract!!! What the H E double hockey sticks has happened to the service industries in this country!?! If I operated my painting business like these tube distributors I'd be broke in a month!!! The difference is that I'm one of a hundred painters and there is a much smaller number of tube distributors that service a larger demographic. It's smart business I suppose. But Stan, at least, feels some accountability for the service he's providing. I'd like to see that in a US tube distributor.

[Leo_Gnardo]

But Stan, at least, feels some accountability for the service he's providing. I'd like to see that in a US tube distributor.

You've bumped your nose on a couple of dodgy ones. If your tube consumption were greater, Magic's been good. There's a couple other outfits that well, are less disappointing (if that's a recommendation) than thetroublestore. Over at Audio Asylum you'll find Jim McShane in Chicago comes highly recommended. I haven't done business with him yet but his reputation has a ring like an (authentic) silver dollar. And he doesn't deal exclusively with the snobby hi fi crowd. Google him & check out his website.

Remember that phrase "the new paradigm"? It was all the rage @ 12 years ago. Nobody quite knew what it meant then but the meaning has come clear now. It's the new way of doing business. Grab the money and deliver the least in goods & services. Seems to have served the banksters well as well as a broad swath of other businesses. Honesty, forthrightness & hard work are passe'. What quaint old notions. Except - there are a few individuals & outfits that still do their best to carry on a tradition like Honest Abe at the general store. Not the way to become a millionaire but customers appreciate you.

[Chuck H]

Honesty, forthrightness & hard work are passe'. What quaint old notions. Except - there are a few individuals & outfits that still do their best to carry on a tradition like Honest Abe at the general store. Not the way to become a millionaire but customers appreciate you.

Indeed! I, unfortunately, suffer this complex. The ideal that you should try to produce an honest trade. Obviously that makes me little more than prey. And the people who may appreciate me only do so for as long as I have something to offer. As that possibility evaporates with the "new paradigm" I won't even be a consideration. I know this and yet I continue to operate as if cleaning my own porch will set a positive example. Change the world by changing your own world?!? Probably not going to work out. But I have all these damn morals to deal with.

[km6xz]

Prices and service are byproducts of competition. If forces refinement of the business plan frequently and creating a solution that is perceived as worth something to the end user, if done effectively and ensures stagnation if not.
Unfortunately competition is the enemy of monopolies and large organizations put most of their effort into limiting competition through using government policy as a weapon, policy that they control through owning the attention of legislators, tax policy and regulators. So small business has to find ways of generating a perceived difference that is valued by the customer base the service is focused on. The value of any product or service is not want the producer thinks it is, but what the targeted audience values their problem, they are concerned with, as its value to have that problem disappear. When the value in the customer's eyes decrease, so does the real value of the product or service regardless of the time, labor, innovation or materials used to create it.
So small businesses need to be more concerned with customer problems and solve them in ways that large businesses do not focus on or can't understand. That gives smart small business people an advantage over big companies by being more narrowly focused and identifying customer problems more accurately. I use the term "problem" as in concern or interest. Why are they in the market or what solution to a concern can the small business person solve? Using that view of services and products, and being flexible in adjusting services to need, it is possible to carve out a pretty good niche.
Service has used, traditionally, a very inefficient business model so any improvement in efficiency pays off handsomely. There is lots of room in most small service providers to increase efficiency. The tube distributors mostly come from the service sector and expect traditionally large margins that cover the poor efficiencies so often that higher margin reduces the urgency of improving their business model.
IC makers spend millions to be able to produce a chip they are happy to sell for $0.10. Tube makers spend hundreds or a few thousand developing a product that sells for $10. And they think they have it tough. No change would come unless there was more efficient competition which there likely never will be, it is too small a market to warrant investment for the long haul. It is too small a potential market, they think, to warrant hiring real engineers and develop QC programs other than plugging it into a tester and see if it lights up. If the current 4,000,000 unit annual sales could attract someone with a better understanding of the market they could own it. There is no reason tubes are not much more reliable and consistent, for a lower price, other than lack of interest. Some praise tube re-branders because they plug the tube into a testor that in no way reflects the ultimate use the buyer wants it for. That would be piss poor QC in almost any industry but this one is so focused on fairy dust and magic sound traits that no one has an incentive to have high quality well specified parts.
Every business that I have gotten involved with, often with no prior experience, that lack of experience was my secret weapon that made it work. That lack of experience in the industry allowed me to view the products or service from the eyes of the customer and did what was effective in addressing what the customers would value instead of industry standards, jargon, associations and good ol' boy networks.
When I started my one man repair shop, just for fun after retiring from recording, it was a field service for recording studios more consulting or trouble shooter than as a bench tech. I did it as much for hobby as for income. My approach was different than the dozens of established repair shops in the area and it was from the customer's point of view. It grew itself to become the largest of its type outgrowing three buildings in 3 years and ended up with 24 work benches and depot maintenance contracts with several brands who felt we could do it better than they could so closed their factory service and shipped everything to us.
The same approach was taken in the tour business more recently, buying into a small 4 person company and growing it to have 150 seasonal employees in 8 countries, the largest shore excursion provider in the region. It does not take intelligence or money, or high education, it takes an effective alternative view of a customer base and their perceived needs/wants. Now, close to 200 companies here in St Petersburg are copying every aspect of my tour business, policies and products that they laughed at 8 years ago.
The exact same thing happened in the studio business, which prior to buying a failing studio, I had no experience in running a studio. The impact on the industry was pretty substantial.
None took money or special training or business degrees, those would have prevented the different point of view. Anyone can do it but usually just follow industry standards, habits and jargon. There is a lot of room to improve the effectiveness in any small business but owners are quite often too busy fighting fires to look at real issues that insure that fires keep happening to consume energy, enthusiasm and motivation. Running a good business, with good relations with customers, that turned a profit and does it ethically is fun, it is a joy to own. That in itself could be motivation enough but it is rarely the case that small business owner get out of their self made rut to make it more fun, more efficient more admired and more profitable. As consumers we have the tools to analyze any business better than all the MBAs in the world. We consumers told the US car companies for 40 years that they were blowing it and we wanted something very different from them. They were the experts, they hired industry experts, advisers, consultants to find out what customers would respond to and ignored the car press, critics, the people and employees because the management "knew the car industry" and could prove it by speaking the jargon and using the insider buzzwords. To this day, GM management has no clue as to why we did not buy their cars. We tried to tell them for decades. We would have loved to buy them if given a reason to other than spending 3 times more on useless ad campaigns than engineering and design talent. By using the same consumer skills that showed us why not to buy a GM car, a small business owner should be able to see what is wrong with their industry or their business, by seeing it from the customer's point of view.

A good example of effective market research. Everyone in the cruise tour business were experts and I had no experience. So instead of listening to them which would be the normal process, I ignored the terms, jargon, associations, and industry practices and went out and talked to cruisers. I talked to every one I could find in the main cruising country, the US. I gave talks at travel clubs and ended up asking most of the questions, I talked to thousands of cruisers on forums, travel agencies, travel fairs etc. 6 months. When I came back to St Petersburg with an entirely different view of the customers than the industry collectively held, I modified the products, delivery, prices and spent no money on promotion, no ads. It meant some products that were laughed at by the industry but within a year were the top selling products in the region. Within 2 years it had tripled in volume, within 4 years it was the biggest independent shore excursion provider in the Baltic region. All based on the one asset that none of the other companies, some very large at the time, had....knowledge of what the customers wanted and how they thought. No degree in travel services, no consultants were needed, no major budget was needed....just getting to know the real customer motivation seeing it from their eyes.
I was shocked to find that no one in the cruise line industry ever bothered to find out about customers in such a direct way. The primiere industry glossy magazine had me writing a column as an industry expert soon until it conflicted with my party time which trumps all else here. I had never been on a cruise and had never cared to. There 500,000 people working in that industry and no one ever bothered to learn about their customers.
I have been lobbying manufacturers for a while about their clueless approach to foreign markets. I keep telling them that the first company to take customer service seriously in some of the vast foreign huge potential markets will own it. Why would any company ignore a region with 10,000,000 musicians looking for their gear, and who have money in the pocket? The approach by the US based companies is pathetic and is following the same pattern that killed the record industry by ignoring foreign markets that soon was much bigger than the one they worked in. A smart marketing person here or in many ignored markets could turn a brand into gold....eager customers, ample disposable income, need, and interest....all ignored.
What started as a rant against tube branders and manufacturers this thread has highlighted an entire minor industry of MI and pro audio following the GM model of business and marketing into oblivion.

[Leo_Gnardo]

set a positive example.

That's about all we can do. And, that our politicians & police & other "public servants" (not just in and around Boston) would do the same. etc etc. First thing, set a good example, yes. Don't hold your breath...

You'd better pick up on Jim McShane and run with it. He's considered a saint on Audio Asylum. He may not be the polymath that Stan is but he sticks to his knitting in the tube biz, and I think you'll be pleased.

[bob p]

Stan, no offense intended, but it would really help the readability of your posts for someone like me if you could put a blank line between paragraphs.

[loudthud]

I don't agree with everything Stan says, but he does make some good points above. It is hard to read in it's current form however. I'd never make it through 18 pages.

In the semiconductor industry, testing is a major expense. They are always trying to find ways to reduce it. Most parts aren't completely tested for every function. A few parts are tested on each wafer, the parts are packaged, then a simple test is performed to see if any of the bond wires broke.

Tubes would require more testing. To be a tube vendor you would either have to test extensively and charge a high price for that, or with minimal testing just take back the bad ones and try to recover costs in the initial price. A third way would be to charge a very low price and not accept returns.

[Chuck H]

As an adjunct to this topic. I have my own collection of salvaged tubes. Tubes that I picked up as "pulls" that test well and then plugged them in to confirm. All old make tubes from the hay day. I did this because I knew they were perfectly good tubes and they were cheap! I never fully understood the bias toward NOS tubes though... Until I started buying new tubes!!! I can honestly say that the old (used) tubes I collected work more consistently, last longer and sound better than what I've been buying in new production. People are paying out the nose for NOS tubes because the new ones are a crap shoot!!! They don't sound bad. Someone just needs to test them for noise and guitar amp level tolerance!!! Since most of the vendors demographic IS guitarists with amps to re tube, why is it hard to find a vendor that caters to this criteria?

Thank you for the tip Leo. I will check it out.

Stan, is your business model the same as I've seen described in older threads? That is, some testing for actual specs and suitability? and, if yes, how large would an order need to be before you would consider international shipping? Consider that even if your prices ended up as obscene as other vendors, if your tubes fit your aforementioned business model they are worth it.