Ok gurus, answer me this

[daz]

I know that the capacitance in a cable isn't going to make any difference if you use a slightly longer cable. a foot or 3 doesn't add enough capacitance to matter. But if you turn the volume in the guitar to say 5, would that change anything electronically that would multiply the effect of capacitance in a cable ?

[loudthud]

When the guitar's volume is all the way up, there is a resonance between the pickups inductance and the cable capacitance. A longer cable would shift the frequency downward. The point of maximum source resistance caused by the volume control occurs around 7 on the volume pot and a treble roll-off is caused by the cable capacitance. A longer cable would lower the corner frequency of the roll-off.

[daz]

When the guitar's volume is all the way up, there is a resonance between the pickups inductance and the cable capacitance. A longer cable would shift the frequency downward. The point of maximum source resistance caused by the volume control occurs around 7 on the volume pot and a treble roll-off is caused by the cable capacitance. A longer cable would lower the corner frequency of the roll-off.

Thanks, but let me clarify. What i'm asking isn't really about cable length. I just mentioned that to set the stage for the question which is whether the effect of cable capacitance is increased or decreased or stays the same as you roll the guitar volume down. I'm not sure if you addressed that because some of what you said went whooooosh.

[loudthud]

At max volume the resonance gives single coils sort of a jangle or sparklely quality. With hum buckers the frequency of resonance is about an octave lower so it's more of a high end boost. This is where the way the pickup is wound has a major effect. As the volume is turned down the resonance effect goes away and around 6 or 7 the highs are rolled off to some degree depending on the amount of capacitance. As the volume is further reduced the highs start to come back but without the resonant peak. If the cable is plugged into an input with a low impedance, especially a Fuzz Face, the resonant peak is squashed and the volume will fall off faster as you turn down the guitar's volume control. There will also be less roll-off due to cable capacitance.

[Chuck H]

That's a great question. And I don't know the answer I think that it's yes, the lower the volume control the lower the knee frequency caused by the cable capacitance. It's the same principal you've probably already accounted for with amplifier circuits. The greater series resistance (which in this case is also part of the impedance) lowers the knee frequency of a given capacitor value. A lower knee is more audible and therefore the effect seems greater the lower the volume knob is. LT covered an important caveat. The pickups resonant properties are also in the mix. And if we take his post to be true (and I will) there is a peak effect happening at just about the point where your volume pots series resistance matches the resistance (or impedance, not sure) of the pickup. This, if I interpreted it correctly, lowers the resonant peak of the pickup/volume control circuit. So, somewhere around six or eight on your volume knob (depending on it's taper and the pickups properties) you get a double whammy. A lowered knee frequency from the cable capacitance and a lowered resonant peak... Did I get this right? Corrections gratefully accepted.

[Chuck H]

BTW. Daz, do you use a "bright" circuit on your guitars volume control? There is a lot of bunk about good circuits for this. One is the straight cap across lugs 1&2. Pleh! Too harsh. Some say the bigger the cap the greater the effect. But this is bunk too. What is affected is the knee. Sure the effect is more audible when the knee is deeper in the audible frequencies, but the frequency is also affected. So there's an important distinction to make. Which is what frequency is affected vs. how much it is affected. Another popular circuit is a resistor/cap in parallel across lugs 1&2. Pleh!!! Sure it lessens the effect of the cap and brings it down to a more useful range, but it also jags your volume pots taper! Actually lessening the log taper. Which is a somewhat critical parameter for a guitars volume control. The circuit I use is just a cap IN SERIES WITH a resistor across lugs 1&2. This preserves the pots taper and brings the cap effect down to more useful levels. The cap value and resistance value vary depending on pretty much everything else in the circuit. As it does with ANY bright circuit. Of course it's all subjective. And everyone should use whatever type of bright cap circuit (or none at all) that they prefer. What sounds good IS good whether it's a little goofy or not.

JM2C

[jazbo8]

Some pictures to help you visualize what's happening: left - volume at 50%, right volume at 100%, with cable capacitance varied from 250p to 1000p. As Loudthud said the highs gets rolled off rapidly and the Q dampened when the volume is rolled back (notice how the corner frequency shifts when the longer cable is used):



A little sim I built for you to play with.

Jaz

[daz]

BTW. Daz, do you use a "bright" circuit on your guitars volume control? There is a lot of bunk about good circuits for this. One is the straight cap across lugs 1&2. Pleh! Too harsh. Some say the bigger the cap the greater the effect. But this is bunk too. What is affected is the knee. Sure the effect is more audible when the knee is deeper in the audible frequencies, but the frequency is also affected. So there's an important distinction to make. Which is what frequency is affected vs. how much it is affected. Another popular circuit is a resistor/cap in parallel across lugs 1&2. Pleh!!! Sure it lessens the effect of the cap and brings it down to a more useful range, but it also jags your volume pots taper! Actually lessening the log taper. Which is a somewhat critical parameter for a guitars volume control. The circuit I use is just a cap IN SERIES WITH a resistor across lugs 1&2. This preserves the pots taper and brings the cap effect down to more useful levels. The cap value and resistance value vary depending on pretty much everything else in the circuit. As it does with ANY bright circuit. Of course it's all subjective. And everyone should use whatever type of bright cap circuit (or none at all) that they prefer. What sounds good IS good whether it's a little goofy or not.

JM2C

Well Chuck, you just happened upon what it is that made me ask this. It's all about a treble bleed circuit and why it's acting the way it is. See, i'm quite up on them and have tried them with cap only, cap in series with a pot to alter the degree of effect, cap values from 1000pf to 250pf, cap and resistor in parallel to preserve lows, you name it, you name the values, i've tried it. That said, in any guitar i've put a cap alone in with no resistor the tone is always thin as hell when turned down much. In some cases i've used that with a series pot.

But i have a guitar, a '72 tele thinline reissue with the widely hated reissue wide range buckers which with any value of cap straight across with no resistor sound muddy on 5 ! Thats right....any cap value from 250 to 1000pf across the in/out pot lugs, volume at 5, NO tinniness whatsoever, just too muddy ! Granted, less so than with no cap, but in other guitars that setup yields horribly tinny harshness at 5. So in trying to figure it out i have looked at everything and could not for the life of me figure out whats going on. Then it hit me....this is also the only guitar i have that has shielded cable from the pickups to the switch and from the pot to the jack. I realize cable capacitance requires probably 10 more feet of cable feet to cause a noticeable loss of highs. But what if it makes more difference at low volume pot settings and also possibly because with the small cable in the guitar the shield is much closer to the conductor which would cause more capacitance. Maybe then it would cause just enough of a loss and with these pickups it might be just at the right Hz to cause this. I know it sounds wacky, but i can't see why the pickups themselves should do this and it all i could think of. In fact, it did this before and after i modded the magnets by removing the stock screw polepeieces and bar mag and putting strat type alnico slugs in them. That helped the tone a lot but they still get a bit muddy when turned down with any treble bleed scenario. And they are very low output....8k approx.

[daz]

Oh damn ! Thanks jaz. I will have to check that out and see if my electronically challenged brain can make heads or tails of it. Sometimes i feel i shouldn't be allowed to post here being a mere mortal among a gang of genius' in the world of electronics !

Some pictures to help you visualize what's happening: left - volume at 50%, right volume at 100%, with cable capacitance varied from 250p to 1000p. As Loudthud said the highs gets rolled off rapidly and the Q dampened when the volume is rolled back (notice how the corner frequency shifts when the longer cable is used):

[ATTACH=CONFIG]23301[/ATTACH]

A little sim I built for you to play with.

Jaz

[Chuck H]

I've known a few thinline w/wide range humbucker owners. It's my opinion that this is a love it or hate it guitar!?! Funny, I have never played one! Though I've seen and known a half dozen people that have an ongoing love/hate relationship with them! I think the wirdness your experiencing must be due to one of two possible causes. 1) The pickups are just weird. They do weird things because of their unique qualities. Even though you've tried to change that. 2) The guitar has some hidden wiring error that is skewing your net result. Not likely as I'd bet you've triple checked everything.

My next move, if I were you, would be to change the volume pot value. I'll guess that you have a high value pot in there now?!? If the pickups have any especially sensitive and/or reactive qualities, it may help even things out to use a 250k volume pot and a 500k tone pot (if values are other than). Now...

If the worst mudiness occurs at the halfway point on the volume I would guess that the pickups started out with a fairly high impedance and a weak magnet. You may have actually increased magnet strength by changing them. No way to know unless the originals can be positively identified. This would help a tad. But not enough to be satisfying.

Try the 250k volume pot/500k tone pot and use a 220pf cap in series with a 100k resistor across lugs 1&2 of the volume pot. But without specs it's a crapshoot.

[daz]

It's not any of that Chuck. I've done it all....500k pot, 250, new quality 3 way, dozen treble bleed sceanrios, tried different bar magnets before removing the bar altogether and going with the alnico slugs. Even cut the slugs shorter as per the advice of a guy who does this sort of mod to them as a part time business on the tele forum. I've done everything except getting rid of the shielded cable which i may try soon here.

As to the guitar itself, these things have a very special and unique thing going on thats just beautiful and addicting and fun. And i don't know if i got a particularly good one, but i have never owned such a quality fender. Even the high end stuff i've owned didn't have such a vibe of quality and solidness. If only they would improve the pickups a good bit. Supposedly they just recently did but I haven't yet heard what kind of difference there is, plus i have heard the design with a bar mag is still the same and thats what makes them so bad. Mine are a lot better with the mod, but still tis issue is there. With great pickups that have the same tonal character but with much better balance and dynamics this thing would be a must have for every fender fan IMHO.

I've known a few thinline w/wide range humbucker owners. It's my opinion that this is a love it or hate it guitar!?! Funny, I have never played one! Though I've seen and known a half dozen people that have an ongoing love/hate relationship with them! I think the wirdness your experiencing must be due to one of two possible causes. 1) The pickups are just weird. They do weird things because of their unique qualities. Even though you've tried to change that. 2) The guitar has some hidden wiring error that is skewing your net result. Not likely as I'd bet you've triple checked everything.

My next move, if I were you, would be to change the volume pot value. I'll guess that you have a high value pot in there now?!? If the pickups have any especially sensitive and/or reactive qualities, it may help even things out to use a 250k volume pot and a 500k tone pot (if values are other than). Now...

If the worst mudiness occurs at the halfway point on the volume I would guess that the pickups started out with a fairly high impedance and a weak magnet. You may have actually increased magnet strength by changing them. No way to know unless the originals can be positively identified. This would help a tad. But not enough to be satisfying.

Try the 250k volume pot/500k tone pot and use a 220pf cap in series with a 100k resistor across lugs 1&2 of the volume pot. But without specs it's a crapshoot.

[big_teee]

I'm not a tele guy per say, but why not just put a regular gibson style Humbucker in the guitar.
I installed one of my neck humbuckers in a mexican Tele, for a local musician, and the guy just loved it.
Muddy neck pickups are usually wound with too much wire, and have too high a DCR.
T

[Raybob]

I'm not a tele guy per say, but why not just put a regular gibson style Humbucker in the guitar.
I installed one of my neck humbuckers in a mexican Tele, for a local musician, and the guy just loved it.
Muddy neck pickups are usually wound with too much wire, and have too high a DCR.
T

Better yet, get some Bardens. No routing required.

[big_teee]

Better yet, get some Bardens. No routing required.

Blades are a good alternative, and everyone is making them now days.
All the parts are readily available.
T

[daz]

Guys, thats not ever gonna happen. Mainly because i already trie that and it doesn't work. I found the biggest reason i love that tele is the very unique sound of those pickups. If not for them i'd have sold it long ago regardless of what a good tele it is. I have a pickguard for it cut for a regular HB at the bridge and a SC at the neck and i tried all sorts of pickups. It just sounds like a typical fender with a HB in it with a HB anything i tried in it but those wide range humbuckers. They sound like a utterly HUGE single coil with single coil dynamics. Theres nothing like them and It completely changes the character and it's what i love about this guitar even if i have to live with the issues. Lollar, novak and the creamery all make a aftermarket wide range HB's but they are all $200 each. I gave in a tried one of them but it lost that huge single coil sound they were supposed to get and sounded a lot like a regular size HB. Luckily he accepted a return, something he told me he'd do before i bought it. The other 2 won't do that so. You buy one and it doesn't do it for you, you're out 2 bills. So i'm simply trying to figure out what might rectify or help this issue.