Real TrainWreck mojo!

[big_teee]

Chuck, I don't doubt what your saying?
But, when you look at the schematics, there is nothing special or unordinarily Different.
If there is, I'm missing it. It actually seems he used less components, less stages, instead of more.
So was the trick to tune things, on the edge, or get the preamp voltage down to a magic spot?
Everytime I look at them, I always opt out, and end building another variation of the JCM800 1987.
Classic tone makes some neat looking Iron for the TW line.
T

[Chuck H]

Heyboer has some "proprietary" iron that they sell too. The rumor being that Ken had contracted with them for guitar amp transformers, gave pertinent info and then never placed an order. He was running out of the (at the time obsolete) Stancor and Pacific OT's. I think Pacific has resurrected the OT model but for some reason it's hard to peg and find. Anyway... Ken had worked with Heyboer a few times in the past for custom projects of his own. In other words, he probably didn't dislike the OT they were offering (though we'll never know) and did have a relationship with them. He just never got around to needing the OT they designed for him. After he died it was only a matter of time before Heyboer came forward with this design and offered it to the public. I wonder what OT is being used in the NEW TrainWreck amps.?. And who the hell is JM??? (the guy that makes them for the Fischer family)

[teemuk]

I think there's a reason this supposed special trait of Trainwreck amps is called "mojo" and nothing else.

Nuff said.

[jazbo8]

And who the hell is JM??? (the guy that makes them for the Fischer family)

The existence of JM has been questioned by many TW geeks over at amgarage, who knows if he is a real person or not, but apparently the new TWs are selling well simply because the real thing are so hard to find to begin with - not sure how they stack up against the originals though...

[ric]

My thought is there's the what was done by KF: lead dress, as discussed, bypassing a coupling cap with a different type cap (ampage schematic), buying three trannys and picking one (Vint Guitar article). Then there's the how. I've tried to "Dumblize" each stage of an amp, and each step sounded like a step in the right direction, only to end up with a over damped and lifeless amp. Well for starters, l'm no Dumble, but the point I wanted to make is KF may have gone through the amp voicing it in a way that no-one has thought could be right as they went, so they always leave his path before the end of the journey, so they never end up in the same place.

[teemuk]

...it seems what you said is that you can build and exact clone, but component tolerances they will always like any amp clone or even 2 stock identical say marshalls will be slightly different.

There's that and the fact that Trainwreck amps were produced for many, many years and throughout that went through many circuit tweaks and modifications. For example, take an early TW and it uses Pacific OT's, take a newer one and it uses Heyboer. Aside every other possible difference those two also had different reflected primary impedances. Surely that isn't the only circuit difference and in fact the references about TW amps portray that they were constantly built more or less differently from another.

They developed throughout the years and probable minor tweaks had to be made to keep them from turning into oscillating mess because Fischer surely didn't use a consistent lead dress (in such a delicate circuit) nor could have done so considering all the circuit modifications.

The sketched and pictorial references (accent on those words) likely cover a handful of TW amps out of what... hundreds? Some built by Fischer, some by Dave, some by Mark and some by Kendrick amps... Maybe others too.

Then there's the endless list of all weird rumours and "information" based on nonsensical stuff Fischer had tendency of writing or saying sometimes. Mojo? It's in the colour of the wire insulation. No, in the instability of the amps. No, in the standed vs. solid core wire. No, in the aluminum vs. stell chassis. No... And so on.

The clone didn't sound exactly like that one particular TW? Ooooo... likely because it never was completely identical in the first place but based on one or two sketched schematics and a few photos, each portraying one TW amp model built in slightly different ways. It was similar and sounded similar and, IMO, still pretty much like a Trainwreck. That's all I'd expect.

The whole discussion about TW's would actually be more interesting haven't it been already been blown out of proportions by all the black magic mumbo jumbo and people's tendency to believe amps can include a special mojo factor that pumps prices from $1K-$2K to decade higher levels after someone passes away. In the end we are just talking about ordinary Fender and Vox circuits with great sounding tweaks.

[octal]

I've mentioned this idea before in a different context. Take an authentic 'wreck, put a clone next to it. Feed a guitar in to both with a Y splitter cable. Connect a differential amp to the output of each amp (so it will subtract the output from each amp from the other) and have the amps driving identical speakers. Adjust the amps tone and volume controls to get the best null possible while playing. If you're getting significant output from the differential amp, there is a difference in how the amps perform. (You could consider the output of the diff amp the "mojo"-if any- in concentrated form!) You could then attach the differential amp to each stage at a time and figure out exactly which stage(s) in the amp are producing the differences between the two amps. At that point, you'd know which stage(s) and components need the most scrutiny to get the stage dialed in and can play around with tweaking values, tube rolling, tweaking lead dress etc.

This is dangerously close to bringing science to the mojo.

[dai h.]

I don't know if I'd dismiss the idea that they are somehow a bit (a lot?) more 'magical' entirely, but I am kind of skeptical. I tend to think a nice Marshall or Fender would be a better amp (what recorded history has TW made?). I suppose these kinds of topics are fun to discuss though.

[big_teee]

Could someone speculate why KF used a 1k 25Watt resistor instead of a choke?
I haven't tried one vs the other, so I have no experience with just resistor, and no choke?
I just looked, and the resistor is available for $1.29, so maybe it had a cost factor?
T

[daz]

Could someone speculate why KF used a 1k 25Watt resistor instead of a choke?
I haven't tried one vs the other, so I have no experience with just resistor, and no choke?
I just looked, and the resistor is available for $1.29, so maybe it had a cost factor?
T

I've tried both in the same amp on a couple amps and a resistor sounds a bit and feels a lot different than a choke. Neither is necessarily better but they are different. So he probably just chose what gave the sound and feel he was shooting for.

[Chuck H]

There's that and the fact that Trainwreck amps were produced for many, many years and throughout that went through many circuit tweaks and modifications.

The models in question didn't evolve. They remained the same throughout their production with the exception of the OT brand.

For example, take an early TW and it uses Pacific OT's, take a newer one and it uses Heyboer.

Older KF TW amps used Stancor OT's and later ones used Pacific. Ken never used any Heyboer OT's in the amps he sold.

Aside every other possible difference those two also had different reflected primary impedances.

All the Express amps had the same primary impedance regardless of OT brand. Liverpool amps were mostly 6.6k with a small number being lower.

Surely that isn't the only circuit difference and in fact the references about TW amps portray that they were constantly built more or less differently from another.

They were all the same. That's why the secret adjustments are a mystery. If we could compare differences from model to model we might be able to track where the adjustments were going. But we can't because there are no significant differences.

They developed throughout the years and probable minor tweaks had to be made to keep them from turning into oscillating mess because Fischer surely didn't use a consistent lead dress (in such a delicate circuit) nor could have done so considering all the circuit modifications.

You're going on about all the differences from model to model and the evolution of the circuit during it's production. None of this happened. I'm not sure where you could have read any of this.

The sketched and pictorial references (accent on those words) likely cover a handful of TW amps out of what... hundreds? Some built by Fischer, some by Dave, some by Mark and some by Kendrick amps... Maybe others too.

There are a few people and companies that have stepped forward since Kens death claiming to have been an integral part of the amps. Some even claiming to have built amps that were sold as KF built amps. I can't speak to the truth of it but I do think that it seems awful convenient now that Ken is dead. If Dave Funk could build an amp that performed just like a KF serviced Express Thunderfunk would be notorious for being the only real deal Wreck clone going. Period. Players CAN tell the difference. There is some hype, but it's not JUST hype. Who is "Mark"? Mark Abbott? Kendrick never claimed to make any TW amps. They had a partnership on a couple of Kendrick models. Similar to TW's thing with Dr. Z only less fruitful.

Then there's the endless list of all weird rumours and "information" based on nonsensical stuff Fischer had tendency of writing or saying sometimes. Mojo? It's in the colour of the wire insulation. No, in the instability of the amps. No, in the standed vs. solid core wire. No, in the aluminum vs. stell chassis. No... And so on.

You have to take that stuff with a grain of salt. Some of it is likely to be exaggerated, if not entirely made up. I've heard all those claims and never once have I been able to find documented proof that Ken ever said any of those things. It seems like such common knowledge though that it's hard to doubt it. But I've never seen an original article or interview that proves Ken ever said any of that weirdness. I'm not saying he didn't! I'm just saying that people should stop saying this stuff if they don't know one way or the other for certain.

The clone didn't sound exactly like that one particular TW? Ooooo... likely because it never was completely identical in the first place but based on one or two sketched schematics and a few photos, each portraying one TW amp model built in slightly different ways. It was similar and sounded similar and, IMO, still pretty much like a Trainwreck. That's all I'd expect.

And that's fair. That's all I would expect too. But Ken's amps sounded better and I want to know why. "Pretty much" will get you there. But it won't be the ride you signed up for

The whole discussion about TW's would actually be more interesting haven't it been already been blown out of proportions by all the black magic mumbo jumbo and people's tendency to believe amps can include a special mojo factor that pumps prices from $1K-$2K to decade higher levels after someone passes away. In the end we are just talking about ordinary Fender and Vox circuits with great sounding tweaks.

Couldn't agree more. Unfortunately the only facts we have to work with are that Ken made amps sounded best and did all the cool things every cranked tone aficionado desires, the amps all have the same parts and component values and the voicing technique is proprietary. It's a recipe for disaster as far as credibility with certain types. It's a little embarrassing for me! But it's all we have to work with!

[teemuk]

I'm not sure where you could have read any of this.

http://ampgarage.com/forum/files/exp...erlite_187.pdf

"Ken used Heyboer trannies in the later years, but used Pacific and perhaps others in pre '90's amps."

http://www.blueguitar.org/new/schem/...xpr.pdf

"A0: This is supposed to be pretty close to a real Express. Certain rumors were added in like the parallel coupling caps between the 2nd and 3rd stage

A1 and A1a: These came from someone who has seen the inside of a real Express... and lived to tell about it. I suspect that A1a is more accurate than A1"

If you look at the aforementioned schematics you will see plenty of differences that can have drastic impact on tone. Like...

- Different tonestack component values
- Different negative feedback ratios
- Different LTP bias resistor values
- Different coupling cap values in preamp and in power amp
- Different emitter bypass cap values in 2nd gain stage

And most of this information is "supposedly pretty close", "rumours", or based on accounts of someone "who has seen the inside of a real Express".

"Just curious if there is any more info out there on these designs other than the "Blue guitar files?
any Wreck builder websites ?"

"Callaham comes to mind, his is suppose to be a reversed engineering clone to the 9th degree.
Allesandro Redbone schem that's floating around preamp's is real close to the Express."

etc.

And let's not forget...

It's also said that he would take more time swapping components and "voicing" the amps than the time it took to build them.

So, I didn't make this up. It's all pretty clerly documented in the usual references about Trainwreck amps.

So far none of the references are certified documents from Trainwreck itself. All so far has been based on somewhat dubious information so you left to wonder if the differences existed or if they were a mere result of poor interpretation. Fact is at least that Ken used different transformers and tubes throughout the years. That alone can make a huge audible difference between one amp and another.

I've heard all those claims and never once have I been able to find documented proof that Ken ever said any of those things.

e.g. Dave Hunter's book, meet the makers / tech talk section. Basically it's an interview of Ken Fischer.

[Chuck H]

Ken never put Heyboer OT's into any Express or Liverpool amps. Show me where it says that.

The circuits on the Blue Guitar site were early efforts to discover the Express circuit. Much of it is based on speculation, rumor and hearsay so the notion that there were different circuits in different express amps is false. Those schematics are not actual documentation of different Express amps and I don't know why you would think so.

Please don't extrapolate facts.

Remember I noted "I'm not saying he didn't (say those things)". I haven't read the Dave Hunter book. I'll look into it.

P.S. You have done NOTHING to further cause of this thread and I'm not sure why you're posting on it.

[big_teee]

He's dead, isn't everything here Speculation?
T
** Edit
So is this the excepted Express Schematic?
From another thread here on mef.
http://music-electronics-forum.com/a...ress-input.jpg

[Chuck H]

That's pretty damn close. There's no schematic I've ever seen that all the cloners work from. I happen to know the circuit by memory because I've obsessed about it in the past. As it happens... (short story, I promise)

Before the Express/Liverpool designs were known I designed an amp for a friend that was almost the same circuit. There are some obvious differences but now that the TW circuit is well known it would be very plausible to interpret my design as a clone or my take on the circuit. Which it is NOT! It's MY design!!! So that's where the obsession comes from. So I happen to know my own and that particular TW amp by memory. I continue to make this design as it's been popular with my tiny customer base. Ther are six of them floating around I think. I only have a dozen customers since I don't actually make amps as a profession. But it's my most popular design (if six out of a dozen counts for much?!?)

My amps, however, do not breath and bloom like the KF serviced Wrecks do. (yes, I'm covetous! ok?). But they do offer some advantages that the TW's don't. I'd like it better if my amps had it all. Obviously.

So, to get to that schematic. There is only one report ever of one Express using the plate/shield connection on the input. And it was never confirmed. The standard is to simply ground the shield. The effect is quite different. The treble and bass pots should both be 1M log. The coupling caps to the power tube grids should be .1uf and each power tube plate should have three reverse 1n4007 diodes in series to ground. Many TW's did use parallel .001uf caps to couple the third stage (one film and one ceramic). Some just had a .002 film cap.

The power supply isn't shown in that schem but it would be a 300-0-300 ct @ 300mA (I think) into a full wave diode rectifier. First filter is parallel 47uf caps for the plates, two 100k resistors in series to ground as a "bleeder" circuit. Then a 1k 25W cement block with a 47uf filter for the screens. Then an 18.2k resistor with a 22uf for the PI, a 9.1k with a 22uf for the third stage and a 9.1k with a 22uf for the 2nd and first stage. I don't have details for the bias supply off the top of my head, but it's just a bias supply. Bias is generally set at about 40mA per tube resulting in a Vp of around 410.