Real TrainWreck mojo!

[Chuck H]

That's funny on many levels, relative or otherwise

[Thoriated Tungsten]

As to wire having a polarity or the insulations dielectric properties being relative to color.?. Well, I once had trouble with a preamp stage that was baffling the crap out of me. The cathode voltage would move around inconsistent with the tubes operation. I tried a couple of different tubes, replaced the cathode circuit components and was still having the problem. This is an undyed g10 board and was clean. I couldn't measure any voltage on the board, but I floated the components anyway. Still the problem remained. After dicking with it so much I replaced the lead wire for it's appearance. The problem went away. Huh!?! I tested the lead I'd removed and got a negative resistance reading. This lead was only three and a half inches long. I tested it for voltage and the meter wouldn't stabilize. I reinstalled the lead in the amp and the problem returned. Took it back out and continued to get various and odd results testing the lead by itself. After messing with it for about five minutes it started to behave normally and I couldn't get it to read weird anymore in another five minutes messing around. There was a new-ish battery in my meter and during the course of things it read everything else accurately. I have a small cardboard box where I save bits of useful lead wire greater than three inches, but I tossed that poltergeist lead in the trash.

Metal oxide negative resistance oscillator.

[finom1]

Bless you for sharing this information!!!

Part two...

[Chuck H]

So, is it possible that something went exactly right (or exactly wrong) WRT the copper, tinning, insulation pigment and any of their relative oxides to create my odd little semiconductor/lead wire? I dunno and I'm probably not going to take any time attempting to recreate it. I will say that I do have a couple spools of old lead wire that I've purchased here and there. Nothing antique, cloth covered or anything like that. Just stuff you find at swap meets and garage sales. You know, the type of stuff that has the logo of an extinct company and an old, yellowed original price tag about one tenth current market price I don't know how old tinning processes might break down, what older pigments might have been made from or what oxides under what conditions might form in such wire in a few decades unused. Then, decades later, add an electrical current and what happens?

Still a weird experience that lends some credence to the notion that lead wire can have an affect.

[g1]

I suppose if different colour circuit boards can offer differing amounts of leakage or conductivity, so could wire?
That the actual colour is the cause is where the argument gets shaky.

[bob p]

I propose to TAX unrelated answers so either unruly Members get in line or we collect enough money to build roads and schools.

MEF: Social justice, economic independence, and political sovereignty.

[Justin Thomas]

I suppose if different colour circuit boards can offer differing amounts of leakage or conductivity, so could wire?
That the actual colour is the cause is where the argument gets shaky.

If they make caps with different dielectric and those can have different properties... I mean, does a sheet of Mylar have the same dielectric properties as an identically dimensioned piece of mica? I doubt it. Does the red pigment in wire A have the EXACT same molecular and chemical properties as the blue pigment in wire B? I highly doubt it. So I don't see why the particular dyes or pigments in wire insulation can't have an effect. But is it measurable (and thusly provable?) I'm willing to accept that someone might be able to hear it, but I'm unable to back it up scientifically. And those who probably could would probably say, "who gives a shit, and why should I?"

Insulation is a physical material with physical properties, and pigments and dyes are too. But, who's got the money and time and equipment sensitive enough to figure it all out? Not me. I'll keep going using whatever I have on hand, and worry about my circuits first.

Justin

[Justin Thomas]

MEF: Social justice, economic independence, and political sovereignty.

But, for WHO? This is an international forum, and I don't want my gas tax dollars going to build roads and schools in Argentina, unless Mr. Fahey can cough up evidence that Argentine kids are a better investment than American ones. Oh, wait - I bet my dollar goes farther in Argentina, so... sorry, little Billy, we're sending your teacher's school supply money to Argentina!

Justin

[Thoriated Tungsten]

So, is it possible that something went exactly right (or exactly wrong) WRT the copper, tinning, insulation pigment and any of their relative oxides to create my odd little semiconductor/lead wire?

Yes, I can think of how it might have happened, and as low as the odds are, sometimes things do get weird for perfectly sound reasons. If the wire was well oxidized multi-core with tin or lead plating(!), then some of the cores could have broken under the insulation in 'bundles', such that each end of the wire was connected to a different group of cores. Each bundle of cores would then only be connected to the other side through the metal oxide coatings of the individual cores.

However, I have to say that usually I go look for more down to Earth explanations when it comes to perceived or real differences between two seemingly identical implementations of a given circuit. For instance the reason why many people seem to prefer hand wired classic amps over new editions using a PCB, could be down to something as simple as the original designers knowing what they were doing, while their present day colleagues doesn't when it comes to PCB layout techniques. From what I have seen then 'minor' details like creep distance, guard rings, mutual trace coupling etc. is not a major consideration for contemporary 'amp cloners'. So a 100.0% physical copy of a classic amp will also copy the layout experience of the engineers of old.

Reading the interview with Ken Fisher, I have to say his statements reads exactly like he was deliberately spewing 100% concentrated male bovine manure. This with the intent of distracting the reader from realizing how he actually managed to make his amps sound different (assuming they do). Smoke and mirrors, gentlepeople. Smoke and mirrors.

Remember, one man's objective science will be another man's darkest magic.

[Thoriated Tungsten]

If they make caps with different dielectric and those can have different properties... I mean, does a sheet of Mylar have the same dielectric properties as an identically dimensioned piece of mica? I doubt it. Does the red pigment in wire A have the EXACT same molecular and chemical properties as the blue pigment in wire B? I highly doubt it. So I don't see why the particular dyes or pigments in wire insulation can't have an effect. But is it measurable (and thusly provable?) I'm willing to accept that someone might be able to hear it, but I'm unable to back it up scientifically. And those who probably could would probably say, "who gives a shit, and why should I?"

Insulation is a physical material with physical properties, and pigments and dyes are too. But, who's got the money and time and equipment sensitive enough to figure it all out? Not me. I'll keep going using whatever I have on hand, and worry about my circuits first.

Justin

Look up dielectric absorption and nonlinear effects in capacitors, ceramics in particular. You should always use the linear capacitor types (Polypropylene, Polystyrene, C0G/NP0 ceramics) in any frequency dependent position in a schematic.

At RF there are very special situations, where you might worry about the color of an insulator. At high power and very high frequencies an untimely use of a dye could lead to unwanted absorption of energy, possibly resulting in overheating issues. However I have never seen anyone mention this issue below GHz frequencies. It is certainly not something people designing high performance radio receivers below a few hundred MHz loose much sleep over. Audio? Hmmmmmmmmm...... Nope.

[bob p]

KF seems to like to cite RF principles even though he should know that they aren't relevant in the audio frequency band. I haven't figured out whether he doesn't know any better, or whether he does this purposefully to add to the mojo mystique. Either way there's no shortage of BS coming from the gurus.

[Enzo]

Different materials as dielectrics have different properties, yes, but as a dielectric, the signal must pass THROUGH it. It is a transmission element of something. The insulation on a wire is around something conducting, but not in its path, so the analogy breaks down quickly. If blue versus red has some teeny tiny effect on capacitance between wire and surroundings, maybe, but it would be tiny, not tone altering.

As to CHuck's Mystery Wire, if it were really a matter of insulation color, then ALL amps wired with that wire would have the same issue. I have to think - starting place to solve the mystery - that in this case there was either some serious contamination or the wire conductor itself was breaking down. Example: some chemical contact was reacting with the copper making it resistive, or the surface was so contaminated meter probes could not make good electrical contact. Something specific to THAT piece of wire, not ALL Belden 123456 green/blue wire.

[loudthud]

I haven't been over to Amp Garage for a while, but I don't remember seeing anything about wire color. They follow Ken's layout pretty closely. One thing I will mention. You know that coax that is typically used between an antenna and a TV set? The stuff with a solid center wire and not much shielding. At audio frequencies it is microphonic as hell.

[Chuck H]

I've been tempted to use it a couple of times, but then came to my senses. In one case I drove to Radio Shack and bought some cheap device that had a shielded lead as the better part of it's construction and just snipped off the lead and threw away the "thing". I probably had 150' of 75R coax in the garage at that time.

[FalderGuitars]

Insulation is a physical material with physical properties, and pigments and dyes are too. But, who's got the money and time and equipment sensitive enough to figure it all out?

Justin

Ken Fischer?

Is that not the point? In all probability, you or I have neither the time nor inclination - and perhaps lack the money or equipment - to draw a valid conclusion either way. Might not a man who dedicated a significant amount of his time and energies into making what are widely considered some of histories greatest guitar amplifiers know better?
The jury is clearly out, but I for one think we owe him the benefit of the doubt. Moreover, since this thread is dedicated to unravelling the mysteries of his amps, are we not a little quick to dismiss what he says as nonsense, no matter how unlikely it may sound?

For what it's worth, I'm not especially interested in Trainwreck amps. However great they may sound, I'll never get the chance to play one; moreover, on paper they don't look like the kind of amp which would suit my playing style.
What does interest me is what seperates something which is good, from something whch is great - what goes into the process of consistently producing a commodity which stands head and shoulders above the competition. Could be a guitar, an amp or a Scotch Egg, the Devil - as has been frequently noted - is in the detail...

As an aside, I'm a luthier by trade. Not for a second would I compare myself to Mr Fischer , but I do understand a little of the obsession over the details which comes with the terrritory, as I'm sure a lot of you will too.
An open mind is a great tool. Whilst the results of the test must always supercede the hypothesis, the act of performing the test at all is generally enlightening

Matt.