Real TrainWreck mojo!

[Steve A.]

I have one of the most recent incarnations of that amp, the "Infinium" model. by any chance would you have a schematic for the infinium version? I'd like to look at the auto-bias circuit but I've had no luck in finding a schematic.

For such ruthless violators of intellectual property Behringer/Bugera is very protective of their Infinium designs. I have searched high and low for that schematic with no luck.

My friend Felix had been gigging for years with his silverface Super or reissue Deluxe Reverb but has been using his V22 Infinium for practically everything these days.

Steve A.

[Enzo]

Behringer is protective of ALL their schematics, Infinium included. They seep out one by one...

The Infinium 6262 is the only one I have. The auto-bias circuit is mainly a micro-controller IC with a bunch of peripheral circuits to take the tube cathodes and control the grid bias.

[bob p]

I'd like to get a look at that auto-bias/protection circuit.

Steve, I like my V22s. The clean channel is great, and it does get some bottom when you crank it. Definitely not thrilled with the OD channel though. I could see people gigging the clean channel with pedals like a SF Fender.

[frankeg]

Hey Chuck, I was searching for info on the Peavey Classic 30 and stumbled on your Trainwreck thread. I think you and Ian have found a good deal of the mojo with your own build and Ian’s explanation. I’ve done a lot of reading about KF and I remember him talking about lead dress and different types of wire which was also mentioned in the thread but I didn’t see anything about transformer orientation. I recall KF stating that he would move the transformers around but he didn’t give specific details. I got the impression that he may have done this with a completed amp fired up and used his ears to find the sweet spot as he slightly changed the orientation. He also doesn’t mention which transformer he moved or if both but I’m thinking the OT would make the most difference. I also think that he may have tinkered with the lead dress with a chopstick while hot. I got the general impression that the man was a “geek” who didn’t mind spending lots of time checking out the “what ifs” and I say that with the utmost respect!

[Chuck H]

I got the general impression that the man was a “geek” who didn’t mind spending lots of time checking out the “what ifs” and I say that with the utmost respect!

Agree. That's why it's such an eloquent design. Simplicity. Form follows function and yet still does most things well and some things VERY well. It's an interesting design on many levels technically. As a guitar amp it epitomizes some design standards and utterly ignores others. Maybe I'll build one some day just to see for myself.

And I prefer the term nerd to geek. A geek is the guy at the circus that bites the heads off of chickens or has hair like a monkey. Geek has somehow become synonymous with nerd in modern culture though. So what do we call an actual geek now?

[g1]

hirsute

[Enzo]

Words evolve. Nothing to be done about it. "Gay" used to mean happy and brightly colored.

I remember when Star Trek fans argued over whether they were Trekkers or Trekkies and what each exactly meant. I thought the very fact they were arguing about that made them geeks/nerds.

[tubedood]

Chuck how is the quest for info? I might try a TW style build next and I sure could use any tips! I appreciate all of your efforts to this post you rock.

[tubedood]

Are Mallory caps the same as OD?

[Chuck H]

Chuck how is the quest for info? I might try a TW style build next and I sure could use any tips! I appreciate all of your efforts to this post you rock.

Well I have a design of my own that's not unlike the TW Express/Liverpool preamp circuit. That's one of the reasons I've been interested in what makes them tick. I originally designed the thing a few years before anyone knew the TW circuit and when I saw it I though "Huh.?." The actual TW amps do really bloom, swirl musically and sound like they have that elusive quality of grabbing the note. More so than any clones I've heard and more so than my amp. I've actually made some changes to my design just to make it LESS like a TW because I never want it to be considered someone elses "take" on the circuit. I'm the only one that knows with certainty that I designed it on my own and it's not a copy of anything. But trying to reverse engineer the TW amps is just me chasing those extra elements so that I might experiment with my own design. Interestingly, since my amp is close-ish to the TW circuit I did once make a few small tweaks to "Wreck" it. Of course my layout is different. I actually didn't like it as well as what I already had. I wouldn't have left it like that anyway on principal alone, but I was happy to reverse the mods and get my tone back. So WHY do the TW amps do what the clones don't??? Ken use to talk a tall game about how he tried on many occasions to teach others how to voice the amps and no one was ever successful at his method. The fact that he worded it very much like that (read vague) and no else he tried to teach ever "got it" tells me it's proprietary and likely unconventional. But that doesn't help much...

The circuit and layout of the TW amps doesn't much hint at it, but I think the secret ingredient includes some positive feedback. Since all of the available gut shots of actual TW amps have the same layout and similar lead dress, and yet the clones, some meticulously copied, all seem to lack the secret sauce I'm still at a loss to explain it.

[Leo_Gnardo]

Are Mallory caps the same as OD?

While Mallory did make caps in the "orange drop" format so did a lot of other companies. And what with companies being bought up by other companies, you'll find OD's made by Cornell-Dubilier, Sprague, and several other manufacturers known and not so well known. OD's are supposed to have that magic tone everybody's looking for. I guess if you dunk any cap into some orange goop it will come out sounding fantastic, right? There are even custom made OD's with the name of the vendor printed on them, Dan Torres for instance. What's inside? Only Dan knows. It's kind of like counting on the color of wire insulation to have some tonal effect. Same cap, not orange, must be second rate or worse. Back to Mallory now. Some Mallory OD's have polypropylene dielectric. Others mylar. Some have steel leadout wires. Others, copper. Which one is best? Try 'em all & let us know.

Me, I'm sticking with Mallory (now Cornell-Dubilier) M150 mylar caps and Panasonic polypros. I used to like Xicon pp's but that was Mouser's house brand and they've apparently discontinued them. No matter, the Panasonics have been working out great and they're dead cheap. Dip 'em in orange goop and I'll bet they'll be even better!

[Chuck H]

I've been using the Panasonic polyesters of late. No problems tonally or otherwise. But I don't play as hard as I use to. Something I noticed when I gigged was that my amp would sometimes start out sounding one way, and end up sounding another. Usually around the early part of the second set things would shift. I figured some of that was just sound pressure on my ears, but I still believed some of it might not be. I started subbing the Sprague 715p polypropylene caps into my amps and things got better. Not completely, but better. I stuck with those for a long time. When the common values started to drift up over six bucks each I just switched to a cheap cap I figured I could still trust. Panasonic caps have a good rep. I haven't looked into the Panasonic polypropylene caps, but I will.

The caps in the TW amps are reported by many sources to be polyester.

[SoulFetish]

While Mallory did make caps in the "orange drop" format so did a lot of other companies. And what with companies being bought up by other companies, you'll find OD's made by Cornell-Dubilier, Sprague, and several other manufacturers known and not so well known. OD's are supposed to have that magic tone everybody's looking for. I guess if you dunk any cap into some orange goop it will come out sounding fantastic, right? There are even custom made OD's with the name of the vendor printed on them, Dan Torres for instance. What's inside? Only Dan knows. It's kind of like counting on the color of wire insulation to have some tonal effect. Same cap, not orange, must be second rate or worse. Back to Mallory now. Some Mallory OD's have polypropylene dielectric. Others mylar. Some have steel leadout wires. Others, copper. Which one is best? Try 'em all & let us know.

Me, I'm sticking with Mallory (now Cornell-Dubilier) M150 mylar caps and Panasonic polypros. I used to like Xicon pp's but that was Mouser's house brand and they've apparently discontinued them. No matter, the Panasonics have been working out great and they're dead cheap. Dip 'em in orange goop and I'll bet they'll be even better!

I'm almost certain that SBE (Sprague Barre) manufactured most all orange drop capacitors on the market, and rebranded them accordingly. They had the facilities in Barre, VT and owned the brand until they sold it to CDE. Even after they were acquired by Cornell Dubllier, they line was still made in the Vermont factory.
Of Course, CDE said that the plan was to move all the equipment to Mexico last I heard.

[mikepukmel]

Well I have a design of my own that's not unlike the TW Express/Liverpool preamp circuit. That's one of the reasons I've been interested in what makes them tick. I originally designed the thing a few years before anyone knew the TW circuit and when I saw it I though "Huh.?." The actual TW amps do really bloom, swirl musically and sound like they have that elusive quality of grabbing the note. More so than any clones I've heard and more so than my amp. I've actually made some changes to my design just to make it LESS like a TW because I never want it to be considered someone elses "take" on the circuit. I'm the only one that knows with certainty that I designed it on my own and it's not a copy of anything. But trying to reverse engineer the TW amps is just me chasing those extra elements so that I might experiment with my own design. Interestingly, since my amp is close-ish to the TW circuit I did once make a few small tweaks to "Wreck" it. Of course my layout is different. I actually didn't like it as well as what I already had. I wouldn't have left it like that anyway on principal alone, but I was happy to reverse the mods and get my tone back. So WHY do the TW amps do what the clones don't??? Ken use to talk a tall game about how he tried on many occasions to teach others how to voice the amps and no one was ever successful at his method. The fact that he worded it very much like that (read vague) and no else he tried to teach ever "got it" tells me it's proprietary and likely unconventional. But that doesn't help much...

The circuit and layout of the TW amps doesn't much hint at it, but I think the secret ingredient includes some positive feedback. Since all of the available gut shots of actual TW amps have the same layout and similar lead dress, and yet the clones, some meticulously copied, all seem to lack the secret sauce I'm still at a loss to explain it.

I hope you don't mind one more post on this thread. I have been very interested in the TW amps since reading about Ken way back when. On an unrelated jaunt, I watched a video interview with Randall Smith. OK, ok I do realize Mesa's are no TW's, opposite end of the spectrum. But this clip struck a nerve: I can't remember he exact words, but the story goes something like this: They had a prototype they had been working on for months. Brought in the high rolling guitarists to test out the amp, and they all loved the new proto's mojo. So, Randall says, they wen't to stage 2, built a pre-production unit. Brought the guitarists back in, and they all said "What the hell is this, this isn't the same amp?". Smith and his crew spent many months tracking down the difference, finally found it, and he put on a slight smile and said it was "something that should NOT have mattered" and would not say what it was. Had to be something IN the build, not brand of a part, or something like that. It sounds like the same flavor, but of course taken orders of magnitude higher with Ken's work. (Maybe we could all hold a seance at the same time...)

[Leo_Gnardo]

Smith and his crew spent many months tracking down the difference, finally found it, and he put on a slight smile and said it was "something that should NOT have mattered" and would not say what it was. Had to be something IN the build, not brand of a part, or something like that. It sounds like the same flavor, but of course taken orders of magnitude higher with Ken's work. (Maybe we could all hold a seance at the same time...)

I gotta wonder, what kind of discussions/arguments take place between Randall Smith & his engineering staff, and how much self forehead-slapping too on the part of those same engineers, naturally when they're out of the boss's sight. Of course, they want to keep receiving their paychecks... so they play along with the boss. But when the boss says "something that shouldn't have mattered" while the trusted "golden ear" musicians DO hear a difference? And how much $$$ would be lost from profit by going with the musician's choice, not the big boss man's? Not as if Mesa's going to go out of business, hardly. Maybe they should defer to the musician's choice.