why bother?

[Enzo]

It is the touch dynamics that is going to be a big challenge for the DSP stuff. Actually from working on the amp the last two or three weeks, I feel the clean sound is hard to get.

Alan, they said the same thing about piano sounds a couple decades ago. And yet today, we hear synthesized piano all the time and think nothing of it.

[Alan0354]

Alan, they said the same thing about piano sounds a couple decades ago. And yet today, we hear synthesized piano all the time and think nothing of it.

I won't be surprised.

But there are more complication with guitar that piano doesn't, the pick attack. Not only is light and heavy, it's the way you hit the strings. Like I use my index finger nail to hit the string together with the pick to get a special harmonic and getting a scratch click sound. Something like Richie Blackmoor in older days. Different way of hitting the pick on the strings give totally different sound, or just as simple playing on top of the neck pup sounds completely different from between the mid and bridge pup. These are all the small variation that piano don't have. Piano just have to monitor how hard the key hits. I think it's a long ways off. But as the processing power of the CPU gets higher and higher, who knows.

But all in all, it is doable, just how big a budget. My suspicion is going to be million dollars investment, a group of highly educated engineers and PHDs to figure the algorithms. No more garage people like Randolf Smith. It is next to impossible for one or two people doing such a project, it's just too big.

[Enzo]

No one will sit down with an unlimited bank account and invent the perfect guitar synth. What will happen is what has already happened, each passing day/week/year will see incremental improvements.


Actually piano is a lot tougher than that. When you play at different velocity, the string dynamics change. And even when you get the envelope, all the overtones to make it sound like an actual piano is a sea of detail. Point was "they" all said it would never happen, just like the tubesters of today say it will never happen.

[Chuck H]

And just because we have a bunch of Line 6 junk today that is basically toys, doesn't mean that tomorrow they won't announce a new line of "LINE 6 PRO" gear.

That gets a shudder. I went all pale and clammy just thinking about it.

You know you are talking to a real player when you ask what amp he wants you to provide, and he says" Doesn't matter, just give me an amp, I'll get a tone out of it."

Clapton, right?

It doesn't hurt that there's still momentum from the first time the industry tried to go solid state. And there's still a large-ish demographic of tube hi fiers that help keep it all going too. The best, most expensive gear in both genres is still tube too. So there's an automatic assumption by most new recruits that tubes are best. It doesn't look bad for the foreseeable future, but who knows. A guy can dream, cant he? And hope springs eternal.

[Mick Bailey]

I see a new generation of players hooked into tube amps, and they're the Now Kids hooked up to social media and glued to an I-something all day long. 16 to 25 year-olds. Tube amps have been given a new lease of life; in the 80s and early 90s I saw a tail off in favour of SS and hybrid amps and at that time traded in my tube gear for SS. Now there are more tube amps to choose from than there has been for a long time.

What surprises me with the young players is the understanding that the amp is an instrument in its own right, not just a means of reproduction.

It's that concept that needs to be overcome for DSP to make it. Is there a DSP amp out there that's an instrument in its own right? One that hasn't got an array of 'British Crunch', 'Classic Tweed' and other 'sounds-like' settings? One that isn't just trying just too hard to sound like something else?

For something new to succeed it has to be overwhelmingly better in some respect to what went before - cheaper, faster, lighter or whatever. We set tube amps as the pinnacle of guitar audio because there genuinely isn't something better right now. That doesn't mean to say that there can't be; that new technologies emerge that throw everything we hold dear into the Stone Age. So groundbreaking that we can't at present even imagine what form it will take.

To suggest that there hasn't been an influential guitarist since EVH isn't true; Joe Satriani and Steve Vai have had a massive influence.

[Alan0354]

To suggest that there hasn't been an influential guitarist since EVH isn't true; Joe Satriani and Steve Vai have had a massive influence.

They are more evolution rather than revolution. The real revolution is still EVH that broke off from Clapton and Hendrix and came in with the hammering and all. To me Satriani is more jazz influenced from John McLaughlin, Al Demeola, Frank Gambadi ( second guitarist of Chick Corea) type. As good as Carlos Santana, I still group him with Clapton and Hendrix era. EVH is just so different I can't play a lick of his stuffs because I quit in 1979!!!

Not to mention EVH is famous to the lame person, is the mass audience that really matter, not just impressing the insiders. I don't think I would even know Satriani and Vai if I am not in the music field. But everyone know Clapton, Santana and EVH.

It really doesn't help that guitar is really not the center of the band since the middle or late 70s. In the early 60s, thanks to Ventures and Shadows, guitar was actually the main part of the song. Then Clapton and hendrix came in and songs had long jam. Guitarist were the main feature. But by the mid 70s, people are tired of guitars, singing pretty much taking back over. That was part of the reason I quit because I did not see any future for me. I cannot sing, I don't write good songs because I cannot sing. The option is very limited. Then I found my new hobby.....electronics and one day I just quit!!!

Band were made popular thanks to Beatles. But now the big names are mostly singers, a lot of musicians are relegated to studio musicians doing behind the scene recording. Very few really stand in front of the crowd playing the guitar and being cheered on like the good old days.

When guitar is relegated to just another instrument, it really does not encourage new generations to get into it. Not like in our days everybody pick up a guitar. EVH is about the last one that truly made it big on his guitar. It's been 30 years, you still see people hammering away. Other than we old geezers, who really play the Eric Clapton stuff anymore!!!

[Chuck H]

Strictly as devils advocate I would point out that no new car is any better than a '63 Corvette or Jaguar from an aficionado's perspective. Yes they're still considered tops but we don't make them anymore. While new cars feature all manor of fancy appointments like power windows, GPS, curb sensors, heated seats, surround sound and environmental control. New car buyers and drivers don't even consider a Vette or a Jag when shopping.

To suggest that there hasn't been an influential guitarist since EVH isn't true; Joe Satriani and Steve Vai have had a massive influence.

I agree. How about SRV and Eric Johnson. Both commercial careers started after EVH. Even today there are some guitar hero's that we just aren't familiar with. I'm not a big Avenged Sevenfold fan but have you heard Synyster Gates play!?! He's fast, creative and brings more touch and feel and phrasing to the pop metal genre than I'm use to. Great player. Uses a tube amp of course.

[Mick Bailey]

But Eddy just re-hashed the tapping that Andy Powell was using years before. He never claimed it was his own idea.

[Chuck H]

But Eddy just re-hashed the tapping that Andy Powell was using years before. He never claimed it was his own idea.

Eddie didn't "just" do that! Eddie's charm as a player is a package. He's brash, fast, walks and talks like a real rocker with a funky guitar and a cranked Marshall. His sense of timing is outstanding and he has an affinity for controlled noise and funny sounds. Definitely the most influential guitarist of all discussed with SRV running a close second IMO.

[Mick Bailey]

Eddie didn't "just" do that!

I agree - but more often than not his tapping is regarded as revolutionary (and his idea), as well as his tremolo picking technique which you hear Django use. The shift in context and refinement of technique, skills and ideas made the package, and of course the rest of the band. I heard Van Halen quite a while before they made it big and at the time thought the guitar had been speeded up on tape! The first time I saw them on their first tour left a lifelong impression.

Here's an interesting aside;

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7M8L1rAUsI

[Enzo]

Don't lose sight of the context here. It doesn;t matter if Eddie invented any of that, he could be a total copy of Joe Blow the guitar genius back home. But what he IS is who the general public and musicians in general associate with the phenomenon. Bring up the light bulb, and the conventional wisdom that Thomas Edison invented the light bulb. Now instantly you will find someone who will swear categorically that some other dude REALLY invented the bulb, and how the evil Edison blah blah blah. Or anything involving Tesla. Now go out on the street and ask 1000 people at random who invented the light bulb. Just about all of them will say Edison. Oh and half a percent will be pedants who start into the same blah blah blah. We are talking about selling amplifiers here, not achieving critical acclaim for creativiy. We are looking for someone to associate with the tube amp so every kid will want one. EVH had that stature once. We can find some obscure player in some obscure band who is REALLY talented and creative, but will every kid with a guitar be thinking I wanna be him?

[Mick Bailey]

Bring up the light bulb, and the conventional wisdom that Thomas Edison invented the light bulb. Now instantly you will find someone who will swear categorically that some other dude REALLY invented the bulb......

Now you've done it - opened the door and let the devil in. Could have picked the telephone, spark plug, TV.... anything but the Light Bulb!

[Enzo]

Well, I just didn't want to get into the argument about the toilet paper: should the roll be on the holder so the loose end is out front or back against the wall?

[Wes]

Man, these are some scary outlooks of the future.

I think that as long as good players and players with a following keep liking and using tube amps-
there will always be tube amps in use. In fact- 99% of players I come across have very poor opinions
of solid state amplification. I will say that this is mostly based on misinformation, outright ignorance of the
technology, and experience with cheap gear. Everyone wants tubes.

Even if some big name used so-and-so ss gear- how much could it really change things? Consider the saturation
and ever growing diversification of music culture.

[dai h.]

(I remembered seeing this talk (which would seem to relate to the discussion) some time back) :

(running time: approx 1hour)