Does expensive output transformer sounds better?

[Alan0354]

I have seen people changing the stock OT of DRRI and some other Fenders to Mercury Magnetics or some other expensive output transformers. Does it really make a difference. I heard old Fender amps use Classic Tone transformers. I use Classic Tone OT for Vibrolux Reverb for my build. I wonder what is the difference if I use Mercury Magnetics that cost over double.

[Tooboob]

Mercury Magnetics makes good overpriced transformers. They'll also tweak an existing design for you at low quantity, support a huge list of standard transformers, and I haven't read anywhere that they're getting rich.

To answer your question with a question, which ice cream is better, chocolate or vanilla?

Transformers certainly have an effect on the sound of many amplifiers, especially the vintage ones, designed with cost as a paramount goal. Mercury Magnetics will use better materials than Fender used, and the result will be more hi-fi, with less transformer loss and probably better low-end response.

If you're pretty sure that Leo skinned the cat, you're going to use a transformer like his, with paper insulation, a smaller core, etc. to capture that transformer magic. Unless it's a model where MM tries hard to go retro, you'll get somewhat less transformer mojo from MM. The push and pull tubes will still talk to each other, etc., as the architecture forces, but the transformer-specific deficiencies that help shape blackface tone will probably be reduced.

You can audition transformers, but it's much cheaper to audition picks, and I think that the picks will provide greater variation from which to choose at much lower cost.

[soundguruman]

Only a professional would notice the difference.
Like a studio musician, engineer, etc...

The frequency response is much better, better low frequency
and the transformer are built very nicely with good materials,
and there is Teflon silver plated copper wire leads...
Baked Powder coated cases...made in USA...that's a plus.

But from the standpoint of an average guitar player there is almost no difference at all.
Most people would not "even" notice it.

I noticed in the Blues Junior $300 worth of trannys did make it sound better, to me...
and to a professional guitar player, with a very critical ear.
But is it worth $300 to a typical guitar player? No.

There is no "magical" leap of improvement, only very subtle differences.
Don't expect a miracle, as you will not receive it.


AND Hammond is making Hi Fi output transformers, which are just as remarkable.
Like 280 watt, ultra-linear, with bass response down to 30 hz.
They DO sound good, especially in Hi Fi applications, or in Bass amp.

And Mercury will not give ANY break on price to a repair shop...unless I buy 10 transformers....
And they will sell the customer direct, for the same price they sell to me, or a music store.
There really is no dealer advantage.

SO, where is my motivation...or profit...for selling these? There isn't any. I make no money on it.
And I don't want to stock 10 transformers...and let $2000 sit unused for years....How often do you sell these things?

Changing to a better pickup on the guitar will get you more bang for the buck.
Installing A Fromel amp MOD will also spice it up quite a bit.
Those two things give me a "more noticeable" improvement.

And I AM a pretty experienced guitar player, and live sound / studio engineer...and I CAN hear the difference.

So, I have to conclude that changing the transformers is highly over-rated. 90% hype, and 10% improvement.
Sorry, no magic transformations.

[Pedro Vecino]

The main problem I've seen is when someone intends to fix a poorly done texture with an new output transformer.
With orange drops and silver mica capacitors, the same. It's like an epidemic.
In some cases an output transformer extends the tonal range. Keeps better with the volume (which also has a dynamic effect on the touch and expression with reference to the previous one) but when this happens the trend is towards a more clinical sounding. Something useful in certain amp concepts but inadvisable in others. Most times within more narrow limits than expected.
My conclusion is: if the amp sounds perfect you can try another output transformer, but this also creates another question: Is needed to try another transformer if the amp sounds perfect?

[soundguruman]

The main problem I've seen is when someone intends to fix a poorly done texture with an new output transformer.
With orange drops and silver mica capacitors, the same. It's like an epidemic.
In some cases an output transformer extends the tonal range. Keeps better with the volume (which also has a dynamic effect on the touch and expression with reference to the previous one) but when this happens the trend is towards a more clinical sounding. Something useful in certain amp concepts but inadvisable in others. Most times within more narrow limits than expected.
My conclusion is: if the amp sounds perfect you can try another output transformer, but this also creates another question: Is needed to try another transformer if the amp sounds perfect?

I am getting quite a bit more value from orange drop and silver mica, than I do from a new transformer.

The orange drops are probably fake Chinese reproductions...
and the silver micas from China may not be real either...
But they still sound better than changing the transformer.

Epidemic? How do you think these silver mica caps became so popular? Because of me.
I found that I could get less noise by using them. That was 30 years ago.
Why do you think so many distributors are selling them for guitar amps? Because of me.

I started the trend, so blame me exclusively. I'm guilty as charged.
I am the ONE who did it. I put the idea in motion.

The $10,000 Marshall plexi clone, with all silver mica caps? All custom made to military specs?
That's me too. It's ALL my fault.

Orange drops?
They sounded better than the usual cheap junk. You should blame Leo Fender for that. I won't take credit.
And, FYI, they do sound better.
They sound more like old style, primitive capacitors. Big, inefficient, microphonic, coat hanger wire leads, perfect.

Now we are leaning to mylar capacitors, which also sound pretty darn good in guitar amps.
Big, inefficient and cheap. But, they ooze tone.

BUT most of the people who talk about this...
don't even know HOW to play electric guitar.
Which amazes me even further.

They all want to make a judgement....without the facts, and without listening, like a guitar player "would be" listening.
There is quite a bit more to making a guitar amp sound good,
than just being a technician.
It's the musicians who should be judging, not the technicians.

[R.G.]

You probably think this song is about you.

[NateS]

Shhh RG. Please don't disturb the talent while on the set, or you might mess up the world's longest running reality TV show.

[Alan0354]

If you're pretty sure that Leo skinned the cat, you're going to use a transformer like his, with paper insulation, a smaller core, etc. to capture that transformer magic. Unless it's a model where MM tries hard to go retro, you'll get somewhat less transformer mojo from MM. The push and pull tubes will still talk to each other, etc., as the architecture forces, but the transformer-specific deficiencies that help shape blackface tone will probably be reduced.

I think extending to lower frequency is not necessary a good thing. Increase the highs might help a little. I thought smaller core might give the compression that people want?

Is it really true Old Fender BF and SF use Classic Tone transformers? I have the OT for Vibrolux/Pro/Bandmaster Reverb from Classic tone, the dimension looks very similar to the original Pro Reverb OT.

[big_teee]

I put this OT in my last 6L6 build.
It sounded warm with great tone.
Fender Output Transformer, Super Reverb, Bassman, Concert, 4/8/16 with M-6 Upgrade

[Justin Thomas]

Since the DRRI was brought up by name... How much money do you have to spend to "upgrade" the reissue with trannies, speakers, caps, resistors, and (why not) a new cabinet, before you sit back and say, "well, damn, for the $1,000 for the amp, $200 for the seaker, $300 for trannies, $100 for caps, $25 for resistors, for a little bit more I coulda just bought an ACTUAL Deluxe Reverb."

My philosophy? Upgrade it if it blows up. Or if you have a SPECIFIC goal in mind. I hafta say, spending all that $$$ on a perfectly working tranny? Meh. If it's a new build, spend whatever the heck you can or want, or what the customer will pay for. But I've managed to talk most out of spending that kind of money for (probably) nothing.

And I'm pretty sure all my BF & SF Fenders have Schumacher (sp?) transformers in them... except for the Princeton Reverb OT & reverb tranny. All the rest are 606-XXX.

Justin

[ron vogel]

The Classic tone tranny's are from magnetic components...they were the OEM for Supro, National, Airline, Etc. They wished they supplied Fender...the place is a hole in the wall...I should know, they are across the street from where I work.

[g1]

You probably think this song is about you.

The ratio of "delusions of grandeur" to "lucid moments" is rather appalling isn't it?

[big_teee]

The Classic tone tranny's are from magnetic components...they were the OEM for Supro, National, Airline, Etc. They wished they supplied Fender...the place is a hole in the wall...I should know, they are across the street from where I work.

Can you make a Midnight Requisition for us?
T

[Daver]

Fender typically used Triad transformers in the tweed era and Schumacher transformers during the later eras. There was some overlap during the transition and there are some transformers in Fender amps that are something other than those two. Perhaps they had supply issues from time to time. As Ron said, Classic Tone/Magnetic Components did not supply Fender.
FWIW I just did some output transformer testing/listening tests with a new amp I built similar to a 5D3 Fender Deluxe. The Classic Tone sounded better than the MM.
Dave

[Alan0354]

I use the Classic Tone, I have no complain so far. I just kept reading people changing to MM OT.