I'm in WAY over my head...

[Chuck H]

O.K... There's this heavy hitter in the guitar do dad world and he's going to try getting into amps again. He's a friend of a friend. Anyway, he's over at my friends house and gets the chance to play through one of his amps that I did ALOT of modification to. So this heavy hitter says to my friend "I'm about to buy an amp company, I'd like to talk to the guy who built this amp." So my friend calls me up and I head straight over. I get to jam with this guy (who, thankfully, was as rusty as I am) and he tells me he wants me to build him an amp from scratch so he can see what my designs sound like. So I do. And he loves it. Now we're talking turkey about my level of involvement and the next steps...WOAH!!!

The rub is that I'm a hack... I am not an engineer and I've never studied electronics. I'm a hobbiest with about 17 years on/off experience, so I get around an amp pretty well. But the R&D for something like this is going to prove challenging for a guy who is math impaired like me. Hell, I don't even own an O-scope. Don't get me wrong. There are alot of guys who are supremely more qualified for this opportunity than me. But they don't build better sounding amps. Still, I'm feeling the pressure.

I'm going to keep the smoke and mirrors going for as long as I can. I hope I can lean on you guys for some support when I get stuck. This is a much needed change in my life right now...WOOO HOOO!!!

Chuck

[Enzo]

You have made an amp the guy likes. Presumably you can make more of them, or show others the schematics and parts choices so they can build them. You don't have to be a chef to make a tasty meatloaf.

Did the guy ASK if you were an engineer? Or did he ask if you could make amps? Leo Fender took his basic designs from the RCA tube manuals. Be honest with the guy, tell him you are no engineer. But also be ready to tell him what you can do. Can you tweak a curcuit to sound better? Can you alter gain structure? If he wants it brighter or less bright, can you do that?

You don;t need to be an engineer to know what a brite cap does, or what effect a cathode bypass cap has if you switch it in and out.

I have been soldering over 50 years myself, and I like to think I have some insights into how amps work. ANd I feel I could build good amps and modify existing ones. But I am no engineer, I don't need to be to build boutique amps.

[Chuck H]

Thanks

Thank you Enzo. The confidence boost is appreciated. I do believe I can do this. Everything HE'S aking for is pretty pedantic stuff (OD, channel switching, FX loop, etc...) But he really isn't clued into the existing marketing yet. He wants to offer "boutique" amps (hand wired on an eyelet board, classic sounding circuits, custom wood cabinets as an option) but he also wants them to be marketable to the gen pop (channel switching, reverb, FX loop, low price tag=made in China, where I would at some point have to travel). He doesn't seem to get (and I'm not pushing it) that those are two different amps. He's been in the amp game before. But he's never really managed to become a major contender. It's because he's always gotten it just a little wrong IMHO (god I hope he's not reading this HA HA).

I'll have to play it slow and hit from the inside on this one. But if I can gain his confidence and aquire some influence this could be great for both of us.

Thanks again

Chuck

[XinTX]

See if you can also hire a fresh electrical engineer (who also likes amps and music) to be your assistant. You don't have to know how, you only need to know 'what', and hire the folks who know the 'how'.

[Chuck H]

Thats a good suggestion. But for now I'm pretty sure "he" wants what "I" have. Thats good. For the electric guitar tube amps I've got it in the bag. There may also be some transistor amps in the line eventually for other instruments. But I'm going to wait until I feel he's suitably impressed to admit that he'll need another tech for solid state circuits.

I'll probably end up doing a colaberative hybrid transistor/tube thing...Oh the shame

Chuck

[Richard]

UL and other people may want an engineer involved. One of the main things an engineer has is a stamp and signature that says "this won't kill you". I'm sure your amps are properly made, but bureaucracies (<---- word obviously spelled by recent engineering graduate) love rubber stamps and signatures. Honestly many engineers aren't incredibly smart, they just know where to look to find stuff out and what the applicable laws/standards/etc. are and how to meet them.

Congratulations and best of luck to you.

Richard

[drewl]

Does this guy have any electronics/engineering background?
He wants to buy an amp company, he should know something about it, or is he strictly as player or business type?

[Chuck H]

He's a tweak, like the rest of us. Just not so much with the amps. But he does know a good deal about the basics. Enough to protect his investments and avoid being bs'd.

Chuck

[Don Moose]

In production, especially of hand-wired PtP circuits overseas, the biggest problem you're going to run into is consistency of wire runs.

Invest in a loom, and make harnesses - color coded, precut and tinned, and laced to a plastic grid to maintain separation.

Also, be a real d*ck about quality - make a point of showing up unannounced to do spot checks, let NOTHING slide when it comes to components, prep and execution. Be a pleasant, fun, happy guy about _everything_ else, though, and praise/reward good work.

Best of luck with this venture, may it succeed beyond imagining.

[Macguyver]

Its my opinion that building tube amps of any kind is far more art than it is science, yes there are rules and guidelines, but I look at building amps as being the same as building guitars or any instrument for that matter, the ultimate focus is how an amp sounds, feels, and responds to a player's nuances. That being said, you should design within your capabilities, if that means leaving out channel switching, effects loops or what have you, thats fine because the significant element of this pending production model is the circuit you came up with in the first place, let someone who's better at the science end of things come up with supporting circuits that are/should be as transparent as possible. Remember that you are the artist here, and as in any other art, sometimes it takes a bit of science to bring ideas into the tangable, the process of recording music is an example of this.

My input on the whole idea in general is that the concept is flawed, a channel switching amp with all the trimmings that a modern amp requires, being built hand wired on an eyelet board is kinda stupid. Think about it, the majority of people who care about the method of construction and its tonal characteristics (reliability aside on the issue) are the purists/minimalists who might be turned off by effects loops and the other bells and whistles that are going to be incorporated in this amp. Secondly, assuming that your circuit is a higher gain circuit than the vintage designs the eyelet/tag board method was originally designed for, all that wiring and even the longer leads on the componants, add noise. Yes shielded cable will cut down on some of the noise, but to string wires back and forth between the front panel, board and tube sockets (assuming its the Marshall/Fender arrangment), you are introducing noise that wouldn't have been there if everything was a little bit closer together, classic amps did not have this problem since the preamp gain level was so low, note not even the inputs of these amps were shielded. Third point is that channel switching circuitry (beyond the very basic setups) doesn't mate very well with PTP amps, its not impossible but it makes things a lot more complicated like extra noise and it will increase production costs due to the complexity of the wiring. Last point is higher production costs which equals a higher retail price which equals a smaller demographic of potential customers who can afford it. I know production is still far off, but this premise of having a PTP with modern features is kinda lame from a marketing point of view as well, for the most part, real players care about how it sounds and if they can afford it, I can't attest to how this amp sounds but from the outset, it seems as if not too many players will be able to afford it. You guys should get yourselves a good PCB designer who is familiar with audio circuits, and use thick PC boards. Skip the bullshit, and focus on how it sounds.

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

It's my opinion, after many years of doing this, when it comes to small boutique type amp companys....
most potential new customers won't buy squat from you unless it is very cheap (for what it is), sounds great to incredible and (or) you have developed a fabulous reputation over a substantial amount of time.

[Tim C.]

Bruce's reply is spot on.

Tim C.

[drewl]

I've built several fairly high gain channel switching amps that were PTP, and you can make them really quiet.
However, a good PC board would be the best most cost effective way to do it.
As for the SS stuff...just "borrow" other people's designs....that's what everyone else does!
Good luck in your venture, and keep us posted.

[tbryanh]

zzz

[Chuck H]

Thanks guys

Don, I'll keep cultural customs in mind and certainly do some research on buisness etiquette there should the event present itself.

Mac, (can I call you Mac?) I won't have any trouble with the adjunct circuits. I was a modification junkie long before I started building amps. And I fully agree that it would be easy in this situation to build an otherwise great amp that no one would buy. I think your perspective on construction method/features/market is very close to mine...Now I have to convince someone else. We could certainly do either (pcb swiss army knife amp OR eyelet board minimalist boutique). Some tastefully executed features MIGHT be done with a boutique type amp. But you wouldn't want to end up with a white elephant.

Bruce...BRUCE, Who would know better than you. The plan is that this guy already has a name and reputation. I'm just going to design his latest line of amps. I'm looking at this as a chance to start a resume in case I do ever decide to seek an investor or go independant some day. Reputation is the missing ingredient that has kept me from doing this on my own. There are plenty of guys trying, a Google search for "custom amp" will reveal that. But I've never heard of most of them...Hmmm. They come and go like salmon swimming upstream, spawn and die. The ones that make it become saavy and wise. But I'm sure it's the hardest possible way to do it.

Drew, I fully agree. Eyelet boards make getting a quiet stable layout with features much more possible than anything I've ever heard in a PCB amp. But the nature of eyelet board construction can get things looking pretty busy and messy when I try to add too many features. This can also slow down production and service. After all, when you add an effects loop you have to redesign layout, add a filter, more shielding, maybe redesign the grounding scheme, jacks on the back panel and maybe a pot. It can start get cumbersome and cluttered really fast. But I've been able to do a channel stack and effects loop on a single channel circuit and still keep things looking fairly tidy.

Thanks for all the replies.

Chuck