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Reverb Wet/Dry mixing

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  • #16
    Well, believe it or not, I once tried to make an Echoplex-wannabe tape unit.

    I saw a moldy humid box full of tape heads on sale for, say, $5 or so at a shop clearing their basement and couldn't resist.
    Got a surplus German Papst motor , a rubber pressure wheel and kludged some tape guides out of acrylic ... which would have lasted a few hours only, there's a reason they are made out of polished chromed steel ..... and even those eventually wear out, I consider recording tape a very fine grained type of emery cloth.

    It worked, sort of

    BIG problem was getting the high frequency (think 35 to 100kHz) bias/erasing oscillator coil ... as in I never could get or make them, so used cheesy DC.

    Nice as a science fair type experiment, but impossible to make commercially.

    Oh well.

    Now the reverb tanks, no big deal, only custom part I had to make was a small die to press ferrite powder into pencil lead sized *hollow* cylinders which then were cooked into real magnets at a local Factory ... when we still had an Industry, that is.
    Today they import from China and of course can't take custom orders for less than half a Ton of anything, way back then they sold me 1 kg of the dust which I pressed into some 5000 tiny magnets or so and had cooked by them, ferrite powder gets to a very high temperature where each grain sticks to the one besides it and forms a solid ceramic block, impossible to do at home.

    Now I'm making them for peanuts (think less $4 cost) out of Piezo ceramic disks and "toy springs" .

    The point is not "saving $15/20" but that they are *NOT* available here as a raw part, there is no shop in Argentina where I can order one or 10 , period .

    I can import them straight from Belton Korea, paying a very good price, what anybody else pays in bulk (think Fender/Marshall/Peavey/etc.), around $10/12 each for the cheapest ones , but we are talking orders around 500/1000 units per lot to make it worth it, I have to pay the same for shipping but worst is I have to pay high Customs tariff, a fixed fee to the licensed guy who gets them through Customs and go through a Ton of red tape.

    Add waiting 30/60 days for the whole deal to get finished plus a box of stomach burn pills , and suddenly drilling a few Piezo disks, cutting 4 or 6 inch sections out of "toy spring" , cutting/bending a small aluminum tray and riveting a couple terminals suddenly becomes very attractive.

    Can make 10 of them in an afternoon which are good for a couple Months, only use them in box PA powered mixers and the odd guy who really needs one, most just plug their guitar in some digital multi processor and feed the amp a ready made sound, including lots of different Reverbs, all synthetic of course.

    Next time I make a batch I'll post some pictures and maybe a sound sample.
    Juan Manuel Fahey

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    • #17
      The schematic I looked at (Rev A.) showed the feedback resistor as 220K over 2k.
      I guess 110 wasn't enough. I didn't look at the listed voltages at all.

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      • #18
        There is a definite limit to recovery preamp gain, that being sensitivity to acoustic feedback and hum pickup, so it really pays to hit the drive signal as hard as possible.

        The old Fender standard was around 1W RMS , you could actually hook a speaker to the reverb drive RCA and play bedroom guitar; modern Op Amp ones have at best 9V RMS which into 2K (the lowest load happily driven by a 4558/TL072) means some 40mW , no wonder nobody can get to yesteryear's Surf guitar levels.

        It's not a matter of SS vs Tube but how low standards got.

        SSGuitar member Phatt has experimented a lot, designed lots of excellent devices, and his reverb drives tanks from, if I don't remember wrong, +/-35V rails with a couple TO220 transistors ... his Reverb is incredible !!!!!!

        Lab amps also used a boosted Op Amp, although with +/- 15V rails

        Best some modern makers do is parallel 2 or 3 Op Amps.

        FWIW Roland amps drive an 8 ohms tank with a car radio type chipamp, think 1W RMS or thereabouts.
        Juan Manuel Fahey

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        • #19
          It seems from what others have written that there's not really any point in driving the transmit side of the tank beyond saturation because it ain't going to come out any stronger at the receiving end anyway and some folks express concern that overdriving the tank will lead to unpleasant distortion effects.

          On the other hand this piezo idea you have sounds really interesting. Piezo transducers should give much better coupling to the spring on both transmit and receive which should improve power transmission on both ends. Piezo transducers would also probably have a huge bandwidth advantage over magnetics but that might not matter much in this application. Is anybody building that sort of thing commercially?

          P.S. if you need a localish source for sintered metal products I might be able to recommend a company in Sao Paolo. They might also want you to order by the ton though.

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          • #20
            Thanks
            Not my idea really, I had read about Silvertone Piezo reverbs, a good concept in theory, horribly made in practice.
            Juan Manuel Fahey

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            • #21
              Originally posted by J M Fahey View Post
              ... when we still had an Industry, that is.
              Today they import from China and of course can't take custom orders for less than half a Ton of anything, way back then they sold me 1 kg of the dust which I pressed into some 5000 tiny magnets or so and had cooked by them, ferrite powder gets to a very high temperature where each grain sticks to the one besides it and forms a solid ceramic block, impossible to do at home.

              Now I'm making them for peanuts (think less $4 cost) out of Piezo ceramic disks and "toy springs" .

              The point is not "saving $15/20" but that they are *NOT* available here as a raw part, there is no shop in Argentina where I can order one or 10 , period .

              I can import them straight from Belton Korea, paying a very good price, what anybody else pays in bulk (think Fender/Marshall/Peavey/etc.), around $10/12 each for the cheapest ones , but we are talking orders around 500/1000 units per lot to make it worth it, I have to pay the same for shipping but worst is I have to pay high Customs tariff, a fixed fee to the licensed guy who gets them through Customs and go through a Ton of red tape.

              Add waiting 30/60 days for the whole deal to get finished plus a box of stomach burn pills , and suddenly drilling a few Piezo disks, cutting 4 or 6 inch sections out of "toy spring" , cutting/bending a small aluminum tray and riveting a couple terminals suddenly becomes very attractive.
              There's a place a little north of your address that should probably make it a little tougher to import. Then maybe we'd still have industry too instead of feeding the overseas manufacturing machine Ach. It's not so bad here for some stuff. I could still get custom ferrite products I'm sure. But it would be from a prototyping place and cost more than ten working units!!! So, same problem resulting for opposite reasons. The big difference is that you CAN afford to make pans and perpetuate a local product due to trade arrangements and I CAN'T afford to not buy the overseas product. I predict Argentina will maintain sovereignty long after the US is owned outright by it's creditors! Then all of us in the US will make reverb pans! Unfortunately we won't be paid enough to afford one at that point.

              Actually... I wouldn't expect anything less industrious from you under any circumstances. What you wrote got me thinking though.
              "Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo

              "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

              "If you're not interested in opinions and the experience of others, why even start a thread?
              You can't just expect consent." Helmholtz

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              • #22
                Originally posted by hkc View Post
                It seems from what others have written that there's not really any point in driving the transmit side of the tank beyond saturation because it ain't going to come out any stronger at the receiving end anyway and some folks express concern that overdriving the tank will lead to unpleasant distortion effects.
                I little while back I did some actual tests on drive level vs distortion Reverb Tanks: An Orientation Experiment. Saturation is not a concern due to the massive air gap and constant current drive. The springs will actually strike themselves long before that happens. Even before that the non-linearity due to uneven flux distribution ( I guess) become significant. The bottom line: the max drive current is about 10x the recommendation before bad things happen. Or at least in the sample I tested
                Experience is something you get, just after you really needed it.

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                • #23
                  So the question remains, does overdriving the input by as much as 10x give you anything more on the output?

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                  • #24
                    I've never tested it to see. Hopefully someone who has will. If I interpret Nick's experiment correctly I think it's implied that the output doesn't change much over the recommended drive. IMHO at that drive level the reverb sounds tinny and weak. You really do want a little BWANGGGGG in the reverb tone to make it sound right. For that you need... Wait for it... About a watt! Just as has already been suggested and just as it's almost always been done on the classic reverb amps. Sure you can drive the tank with only .2 watts like the modern Fender amps. Then it'll sound like those reverbs and not the classic BF reverb. Not that it can't happen, but I've never heard anyone rave about the reverb sound of a Blues Junior. I've heard raves many times about the reverb on classic BF Fenders though. So it's a difference like "Here is your reverb. Now you may reverberate your signal." and "Wow! That reverb sounds so wet and deep!"
                    "Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo

                    "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

                    "If you're not interested in opinions and the experience of others, why even start a thread?
                    You can't just expect consent." Helmholtz

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Well as I mentioned somewhere, I played a Blues Jr the other day and cranked the reverb to 10 but didn't feel that there was really much there. Definitely not Dick Dale.

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                      • #26
                        Of course
                        Half the tank size and 1/10th the drive power do not exactly help
                        Juan Manuel Fahey

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