Right back to basics/ pg1 Qs.

[Sea Chief]

Im going to ask some pg 1 Qs, apologies. If you want to hurl abuse, just think & maybe refrain 1st please.

Ive had many amps over the years, & distortion pedals which always seem 'wrong' to me (Im as good a gtr snob as the best of you!). Fender deluxe 85 (SS), Peavey bandit (SS), Crate lg valve combo, Crate head (valve 40w), DIY 5E3, DIY Champ, Fender DR. Ok now distortion..

The two SS amps had a 2nd 'gain' channel, but nasty distortion so I didnt venture here alot (even mild OD a bit crappy) hence my knowledge bad. Other amps had no 'gain' channel or MV so distortion only got by amp UP (unwittingy I bought a few w'out knowing this, so again I was left w'out any distortion available). And distortion pedals. Ok so there are 3 camps. The best sounding I understand, sure enuf yes I do, is if youre lucky to have space & reinforced windows, you turn up a Crate 2-12 combo or a DR etc. I & most don't though.

Ok now this is the bit I dont understand. With some situations of distortion, the gtr vol can it seems be rolled down getting cleaner etc. This is what I dont understand- how? Im not aware that this gtr vol rolling down works with a distortion pedal does it? IE if distortion at gtr vol 10 & vol 5, the sound is simply the same ammount of distortion, just at a lower vol right?

So how is this found? Is it that it works with a gtr & an amp that has the distortion anywhere -within the amp? whether a channel 2 'gain', or with amp-up-full situation? Or only works on amp-up-full situations & doesnt work with a gain channel & here its similar to the same distortion at gtr vol 5 as gtr vol 10..? in which case Im never going to be able to achieve it & Im wasting my time & flogging a dead horse. Or all 3 camps?

Sorry if long-winded but I cant explain what I mean any other way; I dont have acccess to a 2-channel amp (I never thought to try using gtr vol at different levels to see anyway when I did have) & Im unable to turn even a Champ to get into any distortion, and my distortion pedal Ive ditched: they always sound ''fake" to me. Crazy Ive got 3 really good amps here but I cant get even a fraction of distortion at all.

Thanks SC

[Chuck H]

Stomp boxes usually bump the signal faster than a tube amp. With more clipping from fewer amplification stages it's more difficult to get dynamics such that you can lower the input signal for cleaner sounds. With a stomp box, when you turn down your guitar you do indeed change things, but there is likely to be a very similar, though not identical wave form as the end result. Another difference between tube and SS amps that has to do with control from the guitar volume knob is that tube amps use power more dynamically. With tube amps there is greater variation in the operating condition of the circuits dependent on how you play because the voltages are jumping around A LOT more than SS amps do. SS amps and pedals maintain operating conditions for the amplifiers better and as a result they clip more predictable and with a harder threshold between clipped and not clipped. Yet another difference is that tube amps introduce more OTHER distortions besides clipping than SS amps and pedals do. And these too are variable with the individual stage operating conditions. To put it simply, which is the only level on which I have any rights speaking, all you've heard is true. SS distortion is more clinical and stringent and tubes amps distort more amorphous and organically.

FWIW distortion pedals also usually have a lot more clipping than your average whole system amplifier. Having been built for that sole purpose. Turning down the actual effect to more "cranked tube amp" like levels can help sometimes with some pedals. And the SS amps you referenced above are from a previous geological era SS guitar preamp distortion circuits have improved enormously. One reason is because attention and adjustment has been given to the differences between tubes and SS devices WRT their different distortion characteristics. Another reason is that the basic distortion character of SS device circuits has been refined over the years to take better advantage of what we as players DO like about SS distortion.

Sorry if the strokes are too broad here. To answer your question properly would require about a book worth of electronics discussion and a synopsis of the history of guitar tone.

And I'm also sorry your RAT was stolen. I'll assume it was a mid 80's RAT. I lost one the same way. A truly great pedal. If I ever find the dirty rat that took my RAT I'm going to bash him over the head with it. Which, since you owned one, you know would do considerable damage to anyone's cranium.

[Sea Chief]

Hi Chuck- My RAT was stolen by "friend" whom I leant a bagfull of pedals, DOD chorus, Yamaha delay, RAT, a boss phaser & others. On asking for them back a few weeks later I get "I dont have them, X borrowed them". So what could I do? Some f&&king friend- an utter rat himself. Same happened with the only gtr I loved- a 21st pressie form my folks (who have little money) a lovely new spruce-top classical gtr in case we all chose from a local shop. After 6 months I (stupidly) leant to a "friend" as they said they were just getting into learning gtr & really keen. I never saw him again. F&&king cnut thieves.

Thanks for reply but Im even more confused afterwards! I understand about 1 fraction. Im not really asking about the physics, that Im never going to understand, or in actuality I neccessarily need to understand here.

What Im trying to ask is this. To simplify. When someone uses a gtr, with distortion, and they roll down the gtr vol.. and the distortion lessens accordingly (lets say full-on at vol 10 and nr clean at vol 3) in what situation is this achieved?

Do I have to have one particular citeria in order to achieve this?
Can it only be achieved by a tube amp, simply turning it up?
Can it be achieved with the gain channel in an amp, or not?
Can it be achieved only with a tube amp, whether its UP FULL or via its gain channel?
Can it be achieved with a distortion pedal? (or is this inherrantly not what you can achieve with a pedal).

[eschertron]

I think this can be a really good thread on 'quality' of distortion. In the literal, technical sense, not simply "this kind is good, that kind is cr**".

As Chuck points out, multiple stages of distortion - as opposed to one, heavily clipped stage - generate sounds that are less brash and fuzzy. Also, SS diodes clip very hard compared to tubes, and so produce a great amount of high (fizzy) overtone energy.

In my personal experience, when I try for an uber-gain type of sound, as I roll down the gtr's vol knob it gets quieter (but still distorted) til at the end of travel the sound simply cuts out. The electrical reason for this is that the gain is so high (from stage one on) that there is so much clipping going on even the small signal from the guitar on "one" is enough to distort. More signal than that changes the quality of the distortion a little, but has more effect on sustain and the even-ness of dynamic playing, picking, etc.

With a more retro signal chain, and one that doesn't include a fuzzbox, there's less clipping per distortion stage. so rolling up the gtr vol pushes all the gain stages (not simultaneously, but that can be discussed later) to get the total effect of the distortion. It simply doesn't sound the same as hitting one stage really hard. Rolling down the vol relieves the gain stages and produces a cleaner sound. Note that it only takes one heavily clipped stage in the signal chain to eliminate the vol control experience.

One thing you can try is to get an OD pedal (produces gain without excessive clipping) or a booster of some kind. That in front of your champ will definitely get the 6V6 to distort. SE distortion is also a different quality from PP stage distortion. Some like it, some don't!

[DRH1958]

At a certain point, tubes will stop adding gain(loudnes) because they saturate,this to say they can't get any louder, they are passing all the electrons that they can.. So when more signal is applied, they only distort more, not getting any louder. When you roll off your guitar volume, you are just bringing the distortion level down but at this point , the tube is still at max output. Then, when you roll it off even more, now the tube begins to have a low enough signal so it will start to have less output. This is when it will start to lose loudness. With a tube, the transition from distortion to clean is more gradual, so the distortion is less harsh. The clipped waveform is actually rounded when it starts to distort. SS amps transition more quickly, so the clipped waveform is more square and adds harshness.
Some SS amps do a pretty good job emulating the round, smooth distortion. Others, not so much. Same goes for pedals. It all depends on the design of the SS device and how much work they put into it.
WRT a tube amp, if there is enough gain on tap, this can be achieved in both clean and overdrive channels, again depending on the design. But most tube amps will distort even on the clean channel. And we have to remember, even a "clean" sound still has a certain amount of distortion. This what people call a "warm" clean tone. It has a slight rounding of the waveform.
When an SS amp is said to have a "clinical" and "sterile" sound, it has almost no distortion. The signal out is the same as the signal in, no rounding of the waveform, just louder.

EDIT:As eschertron and Chuck point out, in a tube amp many stages distort some. Usually it is not achieved in just one stage. This gives the sound a fuller quality. If it happens with just one stage, the distortion can be buzzy, not a nice full sound.

[Sea Chief]

echertron- hi. This is not to do with quality of distortion. As Ive said before, Im not in any luxurious position yet to be considering the quality of the distortion.

I realise SS is fizzy, and tube amp up full is warm and superb, and a gain channel even on a tube amp is a compromise between the 2 lets say.

Im simply wanting to know (beit crap chnnel2 SS fizz or fender super-reverb-up-full sumptious it makes not a fart of difference -for here/ for now-) how I get to use the gtr vol, with distortion however it is made, by way of "rolling it down to clean it up". How do I get this situation available?

[Chuck H]

My seemingly ambiguous first post actually DID address the question, though not directly as it's not a direct answer. As in, "Some animals are fast, but others are slow. Why?"

To try and narrow it down, or cover it from a specific perspective (my own), I'll say that most tube amps derive their distortion from multiple stages that may, and usually do, distort differently. Clean to a point and then affecting succeeding stages in more complex and profound way. This allows for things to be equal to a point and then, gradually, acutely unequal. Making for a greater difference between the clean and distorted signals. Where SS amps and distortion pedals, for the most part, clip the signal off in a sharp and predictable way with only one or two stages that do all the clipping. So the threshold is harder and the effect is harder.

Many modern uber gain tube amps are designed for preamp clipping and do not clip the power tubes much, if at all. They often have more stable voltages during operation and a harder clipping sound that is more like a distortion pedal. Stand alone tube preamps do this also. There are still, usually, more stages in a row and more a gradual transition from clean to distortion than most SS distortion preamps or devices. But still not as effective for controlling from the guitar as whole amp distortion that includes the power tubes and more dynamic operating conditions for the series amplifier stages.

I'm trying to help you understand the principals without the need to have an intimate understanding of electronics. You will do better to understand than to simply know rote that "Vintage style tube amps do it, but not high gain channels or SS amps." You already know that.

It's mostly the harder clipping from fewer stages and more linear clean/distorted operating conditions that keep uber gain tube preamps and SS amps and pedals from allowing good distortion control from the guitar.

Honest to Pete this is the layman's version of the story. To understand better you would need to speak a language earned with years of electronics tweaking and circuit observation. I hope there is some clarity here for you.

[pdf64]

how I get to use the gtr vol, with distortion however it is made, by way of "rolling it down to clean it up". How do I get this situation available?

Just set up a medium degree of kerrang with the guitar on 10, maybe tone about halfway.
Then turn the guitar volume down and its tone up. That's it! The degree of overdrive should be reduced in accordance with the guitar volume setting.
50s wiring (ie tone after the volume), or a bright cap etc compensation on the guitar volume control, can help to improve the tonal consistency between settings, ie avoid the overdrive being overly bright / the rolled down tone muffled.
If your guitar/s have a volume control with linear taper it will need turning down to very low, eg 1-2, almost off. A smooth audio taper works much better, Bourns have been recommended for this, I've yet to try them though.
Higher resistance volume controls, eg 500k, have inherently greater treble loss when turned down, so 250k - 300k types tend to work better.
With a 2Vol2Tone Gibson type control arrangement, if both pickups are selected then both will need turning down; so it's more convenient to use one or the other pickup.
A compressor between the guitar and overdriven circuit will tend to reduce the effectiveness of the above method, as the compressor will tend to make up the gain lost in the guitar's volume control.
Gain, volume, distortion, master volume are all gain controls, the particular name used tends to represent where they are sited along the signal path; those mounted in the instrument may be seen as the first such gain control in the signal path.

[Sea Chief]

One thing you can try is to get an OD pedal (produces gain without excessive clipping) or a booster of some kind. That in front of your champ will definitely get the 6V6 to distort. SE distortion is also a different quality from PP stage distortion. Some like it, some don't!

But this is exactly what Im saying I dont want. I know an OD pedal will disort. Whether I like it, or I hate it is entirely irrelevant.

What is relevant is whether (physics and stages and clipping and all the techincal terminolgy aside- I dont need to know any of this) simply using the OD pedal with the Champ I can turn down the gtr vol and it "cleans up". Simple as that. Does it, or not? Im under the impression that by turning the gtr vol to 5 I will still hear the same ammount of distrortion just at a lower volume with a distortion pedal, which is entirely different to what I am trying to find, which is the "cleaning-up" of the distortion via the gtr vol.. and so completely NOT what I want. If I can acertain this I can move onto the same Q applied to a 2-channel amp, and whether there is a difference between the nature of using the gtr vol in conjunction with the amp's gain stage distortion (fizz or sumptious- I couldnt care less I just want to know HOW) and using the gtr vol with a distortion pedal.

[Sea Chief]

Just set up a medium degree of kerrang with the guitar on 10, maybe tone about halfway. Then turn the guitar volume down and its tone up. 50s wiring (ie tone after the volume), or a bright cap etc compensation on the guitar volume control, can help to improve the tonal consistency, ie avoid the overdrive being overly bright / the rolled down tone muffled.
If your guitar/s have a volume control with linear taper it will need turning down to very low, eg 1-2, almost off.

I dont understand what you mean by "kerrang", or using the tone knob. Im not talking about the tone knob. Im --only-- talking about the gtr's vol knob. Again. Im not interested in quality of the overdriven sound here. Its completely irrelelvant to my Q. It can be fizz-crap. It can be sumptious super-reverb. I dont care one iota for here.


*All I want to know is this: what does an amp have to be, or be set at, in order to use the gtr's volume knob to "clean-up" a full distorted sound (at gtr vol 10.. to say "just-breaking-up" at gtr vol 5)?*

[pdf64]

Sorry for being unclear, by kerrang I meant overdrive / distortion. The actual setting will depend on the guitar, amp, pedal, your taste. Maybe try halfway initially.
Sorry for complicating it by adding detail regarding the use of the guitar's tone control; however, I find that its use greatly improves the end result, and if I hadn't included that info at this point, you may have justifiably queried my reticence later.

[pdf64]

simply using the OD pedal with the Champ I can turn down the gtr vol and it "cleans up"

Yes

Im under the impression that by turning the gtr vol to 5 I will still hear the same ammount of distrortion just at a lower volume with a distortion pedal.

No, the degree of distortion will be less; by how much depends on the guitar's volume control taper characteristic.

[Sea Chief]

My seemingly ambiguous first post actually DID address the question, though not directly as it's not a direct answer. As in, "Some animals are fast, but others are slow. Why?"

To try and narrow it down, or cover it from a specific perspective (my own), I'll say that most tube amps derive their distortion from multiple stages that may, and usually do, distort differently. Clean to a point and then affecting succeeding stages in more complex and profound way. This allows for things to be equal to a point and then, gradually, acutely unequal. Making for a greater difference between the clean and distorted signals. Where SS amps and distortion pedals, for the most part, clip the signal off in a sharp and predictable way with only one or two stages that do all the clipping. So the threshold is harder and the effect is harder.

Many modern uber gain tube amps are designed for preamp clipping and do not clip the power tubes much, if at all. They often have more stable voltages during operation and a harder clipping sound that is more like a distortion pedal. Stand alone tube preamps do this also. There are still, usually, more stages in a row and more a gradual transition from clean to distortion than most SS distortion preamps or devices. But still not as effective for controlling from the guitar as whole amp distortion that includes the power tubes and more dynamic operating conditions for the series amplifier stages.

I'm trying to help you understand the principals without the need to have an intimate understanding of electronics. You will do better to understand than to simply know rote that "Vintage style tube amps do it, but not high gain channels or SS amps." You already know that.

It's mostly the harder clipping from fewer stages and more linear clean/distorted operating conditions that keep uber gain tube preamps and SS amps and pedals from allowing good distortion control from the guitar.

Honest to Pete this is the layman's version of the story. To understand better you would need to speak a language earned with years of electronics tweaking and circuit observation. I hope there is some clarity here for you.

Chuck, with much respect youre assuming Im asking an entirely different Q. You are assuming Im asking how distortion works, why there is a difference between a SS sound and a tube sound etc. Thes principles maybe worthy of discussion, but Im not asking about the physics behind distortion. That is an area that is -WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY- over my head, & tbh Im just not interested.

Ok look to clear up what Im trying to establish I will make as clear as possible an eg.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have an OD pedal & an amp: a Fender Super Sonic 22w valve amp.

The amp has 2 channels, the 1st conveniently like a DR amp-up-full scenario. The 2nd channel has a gain distortion channel. The pedal is a simple DS-1. I have 3 situations.

1) Channel 1 at 3, DS-1 pedal on (its distortion up). I have the gtr vol at 10- its distorted. I have the gtr vol at 6: is the distortion the same ammount just at a lower volume?

2) Channel 1 at 10, no pedal. I have gtr vol at 10- its distorted. I have the gtr vol at 6: is the distortion the same ammount just at a lower vol?

3) Channel 2 gain knobs halfway, MVol 3. I have gtr vol at 10- its distorted. I have the gtr vol at 6: is the distortion the same ammount just at a lower vol?

----------------------------------

If there is an difference between these 3, then Im not asking why (I couldnt care less tbh).. I just want to know which (maybe all 3? I dont know) will produce the neccessary situation to which a gtr's vol can just be used to clean up the distortion by way of simply turning the gtr vol down.

Thanks, SC.

[Chuck H]

Super duper important to the effectiveness of controlling distortion with the guitars volume control is the variable operating conditions for the individual amplifier stages. When you overdrive a whole tube amp system, including the power tubes, there is a lot of non linearity in the operating conditions and this makes it possible to alter the nature of an amplifier with the input signal. Amps that don't do this generally don't offer good guitar volume control. That would mean that high gain tube preamps, amps that are designed to get all of their distortion from the preamp and most SS amps just can't do it well.

A boost pedal IS an amplification stage. Because it's clean it can substitute the for a first gain stage in any tube amp and allow the stages ahead of it to do what they do in getting the power amp to that place where it creates the variable operating condition I discussed.

As far as how to get it to happen consistently, it's a matter of understanding and answering to all the criteria discussed. You can't make a Peavey Bandit 65 do it. No matter what. It's nature is utterly contrary to what is necessary. However...

As I mentioned earlier, there has been tremendous improvements in SS design for both emulating tube characteristics as well as improvements in SS distortion circuits that don't even try to emulate tubes. Much of this has to do with, guess what.?. Simulating variable operating characteristics between clean and distorted conditions. Newer Peavey efforts, like the TransTube technology were making great strides in this area before the digital simulation trend sort of took over. Will a TransTube amp ever sound like a cranked up plexi panel Marshall? Nope. But it will be a lot better than the old Bandit 65 and it won't beat you to death being in the same room with it. Roland also has some good SS distortion circuits that can do what the old ones didn't. Probably others too that I don't know about.

To get good distortion control from the guitar volume the best system is a vintage style tube amp turned up to where it's clipping hard and the operating voltages are jumping around a lot. As far as I know, nothing else does this. I wish I could tell you some trick that has to do with the input circuit or some specific clipping mechanism, but it's just not that simple. For now, AFAIK, the only way to do it is with a vintage style tube amp. Better if it's hot rodded or if you put a boost pedal in front as mentioned. If you can look at, or measure the circuit and operations of this system and understand and interpret their meaning, only then can you achieve enlightenment (insert halo guy emoticon). Until then, just get a fat, sassy tube amp. Crank it up. Get an attenuator if you need lower volume. Be prepared to buy power tubes as needed. If you don't want a technical understanding to achieve tonal goals then your best route is to experiment and buy the gear that works for you, regardless of whatever is happening in the circuits or not happening in the circuits. Leave that part to people that want to understand rather than just know. Then do as Frank Zappa said and "Shut up and play yer guitar."

[Dave H]

simply using the OD pedal with the Champ I can turn down the gtr vol and it "cleans up". Simple as that. Does it, or not?

It should do unless the gain of the OD pedal is set too high. Set the OD gain to give the max kerrang (distortion) you want with the guitar vol on 10 as Pete said above then the distortion should reduce as the guitar vol is turned down.

Im under the impression that [I]by turning the gtr vol to 5 I will still hear the same ammount of distrortion just at a lower volume with a distortion pedal

No, it shouldn't do that. To get the same amount of distortion at a lower volume the vol pot would have to be after the distorting circuit. That would be the output level control on the OD not the guitar vol.

You should be able to adjust amount of distortion of an OD pedal with the guitar vol if it's set up right but it may not be as smooth as you would like it to be. SS pedals tend to have a rather abrupt onset of distortion whereas a tube amp especially if the power amp is involved will have a degree of compression and a more gentle onset of distortion making the distortion easier to control with the guitar vol. Amps with cathode bias and no negative feedback are particularly good for this. It works well with my Marshall 18W and 5E3 type amps.

Edit:
5 posts were added as I was typing the above! Sorry if I've repeated what has already been posted.