Right back to basics/ pg1 Qs.

[loudthud]

I have an OD pedal & an amp: a Fender Super Sonic 22w valve amp.

The amp has 2 channels, the 1st conveniently like a DR amp-up-full scenario. The 2nd channel has a gain distortion channel. The pedal is a simple DS-1. I have 3 situations.

1) Channel 1 at 3, DS-1 pedal on (its distortion up). I have the gtr vol at 10- its distorted. I have the gtr vol at 6: is the distortion the same ammount just at a lower volume?

2) Channel 1 at 10, no pedal. I have gtr vol at 10- its distorted. I have the gtr vol at 6: is the distortion the same ammount just at a lower vol?

3) Channel 2 gain knobs halfway, MVol 3. I have gtr vol at 10- its distorted. I have the gtr vol at 6: is the distortion the same ammount just at a lower vol?

If the overall volume goes down as you adjust the guitar's Volume control, the distortion must go down. If you are not getting a clean signal, you either have too much gain to begin with and/or you are not turning the guitar's Volume down far enough.

If you are not driving a tube amp to the point of output tube distortion, don't expect the amp/pedal to sound like one, it won't.

[J M Fahey]

Didn't read all the thread, so sorry if somebody else posted this, but the one tried and true method to:

*All I want to know is this: what does an amp have to be, or be set at, in order to use the gtr's volume knob to "clean-up" a full distorted sound (at gtr vol 10.. to say "just-breaking-up" at gtr vol 5)?*

is to use a (obviously NON MV nor pedals, just straight guitar into amp) mid gain "clean" tube amp, set to distort as much as it can achieve on itself, no external help.
Fender Blackface or Silverface are best, a JTM45 almost there, will provide somewhat more distortion but won't clean that much nor provide sparkly highs which are a component of clean sound.

Any signal chain (amp + pedals) with higher gain will be beyond what a regular guitar volume pot can handle, as simple as that.

Want some numbers?
Ok, with a REAL 10% Audio/Log pot guitar output on "5" is 0.1X / 1 tenth / 20dB down from output on "10".

The proper OP question , in Technical/Engineering terms, would be : "what amp distorts nicely with signal input 20dB higher than that needed to *just* reach clipping?"

The above mentioned do.

An average distortion pedal in typical use runs about 30 to 40dB gain above clipping, so they simply will not clean up just with guitar volume and so need to be switched on/off .
Most SS dirty preamps are basically the same, so no surprisingly behave the same way.

A high gain tune amp, even if "tube" , will be way beyond the 20dB/10X clipping gain and will also require switching.

It's easy to understand why the Blues guys play all night long, with lots of variations, just using the guitar volume and even more subtle: pick pressure.

[DRH1958]

Oddly Ive had a few amps with MV but they either sounded unuseably nasty (Twin Reverb & a monster-watt Musicman combo/ clean amps really) or I didnt think of using the gtr vol interaction with its gainy sound eg my fender deluxe 85 SS back early 90's: actually prob the best amp Ive had for a quick but bit fizzy 'fender chimey clean' sound.

So, what is preamp distortion? Do you mean the gain 1/ gain 2 knobs are on a supersonic 22 amp for eg? are these gain knobs on channel 2 also referred to as 'preamp gain'?

Yes, preamp, gain, it's called a few different things. It's the volume for how much you drive the preamp tubes.
Preamp distortion is when all of the distortion you get is generated by the preamp tubes, the ones closest to the input. Most players feel this is kind of a buzzy distortion and I agree. But with your situation, not being able to crank it up and get the complex distortion that the power tubes add, you are forced to get distortion with just preamp tubes, cranking up so the power tubes distort and adding a power attenuator, or overdrive/distortion pedals or a combination of these. I thought a low powered, master vol amp would be good to try and if it isn't the sound you like, get an attenuator so you can crank it up, get power tube distortion and then tame that sound with the attenuator. Or add an overdrive/distortion pedal. But try the least expensive route first, then add other items later. Who knows, you might get an amp you like the sound of just using the gain/preamp vol.
Yes, the gain1, gain2 knobs on ch 2 are preamp volume knobs. They allow you to adjust the volume for two different stages in the preamp. The third vol knob is for the power tubes.

[DRH1958]

Didn't read all the thread, so sorry if somebody else posted this, but the one tried and true method to:

is to use a (obviously NON MV nor pedals, just straight guitar into amp) mid gain "clean" tube amp, set to distort as much as it can achieve on itself, no external help.
Fender Blackface or Silverface are best, a JTM45 almost there, will provide somewhat more distortion but won't clean that much nor provide sparkly highs which are a component of clean sound.

Any signal chain (amp + pedals) with higher gain will be beyond what a regular guitar volume pot can handle, as simple as that.

Want some numbers?
Ok, with a REAL 10% Audio/Log pot guitar output on "5" is 0.1X / 1 tenth / 20dB down from output on "10".

The proper OP question , in Technical/Engineering terms, would be : "what amp distorts nicely with signal input 20dB higher than that needed to *just* reach clipping?"

The above mentioned do.

An average distortion pedal in typical use runs about 30 to 40dB gain above clipping, so they simply will not clean up just with guitar volume and so need to be switched on/off .
Most SS dirty preamps are basically the same, so no surprisingly behave the same way.

A high gain tune amp, even if "tube" , will be way beyond the 20dB/10X clipping gain and will also require switching.

It's easy to understand why the Blues guys play all night long, with lots of variations, just using the guitar volume and even more subtle: pick pressure.

The problem with not having read all of the thread is that he cannot even come close to using the kind of volume these amps generate. None of these amps are an option. Secondly, he will have absolutely no idea what you just said.

[nsubulysses]

If you are not driving a tube amp to the point of output tube distortion, don't expect the amp/pedal to sound like one, it won't.

I have not read this thread through and through but this is the key I think. When an amp is cranked to just the brink of output tube distortion the guitar itself is very touch sensitive. You can play light or hard, getting a clean sound or overdriving it if you play hard (loud signal). same as rolling back the volume knob for clean (quieter signal). You will not get this with an amp with modern gain sound or a gain channel. A lot of the old amps seem to acheive this since they were not built for distortion anyway. When you crank them loud, they begin to distort (in the output section), but this is really different from preamp distortion. This is not distortion or overdrive in the modern sense, it is the output section and power supply being pushed to its limits, and it cannot handle it, so it distorts.

[Justin Thomas]

So, if a Champ is still too loud in fact:

the question becomes, what's the SMALLEST possible blackface amp that is push-pull? How can we make a Princeton with an output of about 1W (possibly even less!)??? I think we're almost going to have to venture into EF86-as-power-tubes here. There's a schematic of such an amp floating around the interwebs. Maybe something even smaller. I have never tried one of the micro-amps with a 12AU7 output tube, but I wonder if pentodes might be better, as that IS what the BF amps used. But this would probably hafta be a custom build, unless you try one of the micro-amps and one does it for you. But you'll probably have to have the Master Volume up quite high even on a micro-amp to try this.

For what it's worth, my last build was an EF86-VOLUME-Tone-12AX7-cathode-2xEL34 amp. It's very touch-sensitive and cleans up VERY well from Ted Nugent to Pretenders with just the guitar volume. The overall volume doesn't drop too badly in the process. How can I make that amp into a single-swatter? Beats me... Also, tweed amps are known for this kind of touch sensitivity. How to shrink a tweed Deluxe down to miniscule power levels is the issue. A very inefficient speaker might help.
I do firmly believe that any modern "Master Volume" will be in opposition to your desired goal.

Justin

[DRH1958]

I only suggested master vol amps is because he needs distortion without much volume. And he won't be BUILDING an amp any time soon. Read the entire thread to get a sense of where we are at. Especially post #16 and 20.
I have a Fender Hot Rod DeVille and it cleans up just fine when I'm on the hot channel and dial the guitar's volume back.

[Sea Chief]

If you are not driving a tube amp to the point of output tube distortion, don't expect the amp/pedal to sound like one, it won't.

No Ive said again and again and again. Im -NOT- interested here in the quality of the distortion.

I repeat. I am -NOT-interested (for here/ for this thread) in the quality of the distortion.

It can be fizzy-nasty or saturated tube heaven. For the interests of the thread/ My Q............. I dont care.
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I am ONLY interested in how/ when the gtr vol interacts with the amp distortion. Nothing else at all, not quality nor technical stuff even: it just complicates thing enormously.

Ive just dug out a RAT clone and it does clean up somewhat, so Ive partly answered one part of my Q, but the vol lowers at the same rate and the tone is sort of sucked-out short of vol 7.

[Justin Thomas]

I wasn't suggesting HE build the amp, not at all. It just seems to me that this will probably have to venture into the not-quite-familiar territory. I think Chief just needs an exceptionally tiny push-pull amp that "craps out" @ 1W or less. Or a really good simulator and headphones. Maybe a micro-amp with PP-trifles will do. I would suggest trying one.

I <have> read the whole thread... I don't think a Master Volume will do it for him. Been there myself already. MVs kept at the levels he needs are gonna sound just like a pedal, and never clean up. Especially concerning post #20. I have a Prosonic, which the Supersonic replaced, and I call that close enough. The distortion channel on a Prosonic is not going to fit the bill no matter where he sets the MV. It cleans up okay at LOW gain settings combined with HIGH Master settings. Once the gain is over 4, game over unless the Master is at 4 or similar. Also called "LOUD!" The Vintage channel might do a better job, but only at "piss-off-the-neighbors" settings. I still think the main problem is Watts.

Custom builds aren't always more expensive. Not in the long run. Not after buying and selling dozens of pieces of gear that never get you there. :P

Justin

[Mick Bailey]

Right, I see, I've never tried a DS-1. I have one of these. It's low gain and cleans up fine with guitar vol. Here's a demo -

Original Marshall Blues Breaker Pedal

I've been keeping an eye out for one of those. Nice pedal. I tried one when it came out but bought the Shredmaster instead. Bad decision. I suppose I could build one, but having the original is better.

[eschertron]

No Ive said again and again and again. Im -NOT- interested here in the quality of the distortion.

I repeat. I am -NOT-interested (for here/ for this thread) in the quality of the distortion. [snip] I am ONLY interested in how/ when the gtr vol interacts with the amp distortion. Nothing else at all, not quality nor technical stuff even: it just complicates thing enormously.

We understand.

Ive just dug out a RAT clone and it does clean up somewhat, so Ive partly answered one part of my Q, but the vol lowers at the same rate and the tone is sort of sucked-out short of vol 7.

So that's it, then. You've found out [at least one way of] how to roll the vol control to get cleaner/distorted sounds. Excellent. If you're tempted to follow up with "but how can I keep volume/tone where I want when I roll up/down?" then welcome to another can of worms relating to amp design and signal quality: a characteristic or feature that someone or something has : something that can be noticed as a part of a person or thing (Merriam-Webster).

Keep experimenting!

[Sea Chief]

I wasn't suggesting HE build the amp, not at all. It just seems to me that this will probably have to venture into the not-quite-familiar territory. I think Chief just needs an exceptionally tiny push-pull amp that "craps out" @ 1W or less.

Noooo! I dont use my Champ cos the things so puny sounding like a tiny practice amp it is with a diddy spkr. Its a childrens amp. A 1w is for toddlers. I bought the 5F1 amp cos Id heard so much about the available distortion happening early on the vol dial: its my bad luck it distorts only at vol 8 and not alot at max even (maybe why it was sold).. even adding huge ugly 7w resistors in order to get some distortion (none at all before) which I hate the look of inside. Id prefer a DR at vol 1 + any crap distortion pedal anyday.

Im only interested in when the gtr vol thing happens. Not the minutiae of how, nor the subjective realms of which distortion or amp might be best.

Thanks- SC

My RAT clone is somewhat dicky (sustain s poor & a pot is intermittant) so I cant make a good evaluation, but, it did clean up a bit. Ok so remaining Q is the comparing of the 3 different distortion types and how the gtr interacts. Does an MV vol amp work with the gtr vol interaction thing morelike an amp-up-full situation than a pedal does? (not quality, just how it 'cleans-up').

Anyone know how the RAT circuit compares to a DS-1 at this "clean-up" gtr vol thing?

[Sea Chief]

Justin thanks for that- ok so in your opinion the Prosonic dosesnt clean-up too well & a MV amp doesnt do the required gtr vol thing in general either. Mmm if so then Im only left with turning the amp up then so Im stuffed. I wonder of the supersonic 22 has been bettered on this dept, doubt it but it does seem to have some good tones available even in the channel 2 scenario.. but its whether the gtr vol thing happens, & I can only guess I suppose.

It amazes me that in 2015 an amp hasnt been designed to get a touch-sensitive gtr-vol-interact-thing that distorts well & isnt a toddlers 1W toy, but doesnt incur the police are called, or family is fractured, or the neighbours become hate-filled & threatening.

[DRH1958]

Well as I said, my Hot Rod DeVille cleans up with the vol on the guitar. Maybe a Blues Jr. might since it is in the same family of amps. The Prosonoc is a whole different beast and the DeVille and Blues Jr were direct descendants of the Blues DeVille.
Apologies to Justin, I misunderstood about the building an amp subject. I thought the OP was to be the builder. I will take his word for it about most MV amps as the DeVille is the only factory amp I own. I build the rest, so I can only speak to that amp. And no, it does not clean up well with the preamp controls dimed and the more drive button pushed, but that's not really what that amp is best at anyway.
Anyone have experience with a Blues Jr?

[Justin Thomas]

No apologies needed from anyone!

I don't knock Champs & sub-Champs at all. They're awesome through much BETTER SPEAKERS. Like a 2x15. And there are sub-5W amps that are NOT toys. The difference being you get a full amplifier with a preamp, tone controls, volume, a phase inverter/splitter, and a push-pull power amp just like all their bigger brothers. A 1W amp is only half as loud as a 10W amp, anyway! But the weak link in low powered amps is the speaker. Has been like that since forever. I can also say, Champs crunch like a mother when they're running thru big speakers, too. Or can be made to. I don't quite get the whole "speaker distortion" thing. My Champ has a 20W speaker in it, I doubt it's all speaker breakup.

There's at least one person on this forum who gigs with an Epiphone Valve Jr. through a bigger cabinet.

A Blues Junior may work, but it's still a loud amp. The "Fat" switch may help with the magic, though. Leave the Fat on for a bit of a kick, then try the guitar volume turn-down. Hmmmm, a Blues Junior might be worth checking out. Pro Junior - it's gotta be cranked before getting any crunch out of it, again, loud. Whether it's enough to infuriate the neighbors, I don't know. But it IS a very touch-sensitive and "playable" amp with guitar volume & picking nuance.

I'm with Juan on this, but we need a very tiny power section. The power amp is where a lot of what you seek happens. But it does not exist in commercial form, that I know of.

Justin