Particle board cab vs solid and/or ply....your thioughts?

[daz]

Years ago i put a speaker in both a pine cab with plywood baffle and then into a all PB cab and i recall being surprised at the difference. The PB cab sounded bad. Being long ago i wonder if it was just the PARTICULAR cab that caused it and not what it was made if. I now have a modeling combo amp i really like but it's 100% particle board including the baffle, and it's constructed in such a way it would be impossible to replace the baffle with ply.

So before i spend any more time thinking about this i thought i would ask if any of you are well versed on this subject and what your though are, including whether you think it's only the baffle material that matters or the whole cab.

[Mick Bailey]

The whole cab matters, but the baffle board material and construction have the greatest impact. Modelling amps do everything possible to avoid the cab colouring the sound. If your modelling combo was built (say) with a nice resonant pine cabinet and semi-floating baffle, it would probably sound fine with a 5E3 model, but pretty rubbish with a Dual Rectifier model. So, particle board is used to achieve a neutral sound. That doesn't mean that the construction couldn't be improved on, but the results may be unpredictable in that you're moving away from the designer's intention for the overall amp performance.

[daz]

The whole cab matters, but the baffle board material and construction have the greatest impact. Modelling amps do everything possible to avoid the cab colouring the sound. If your modelling combo was built (say) with a nice resonant pine cabinet and semi-floating baffle, it would probably sound fine with a 5E3 model, but pretty rubbish with a Dual Rectifier model. So, particle board is used to achieve a neutral sound. That doesn't mean that the construction couldn't be improved on, but the results may be unpredictable in that you're moving away from the designer's intention for the overall amp performance.

Not sure i buy into that theory, but i HAVE considered it before including designing the models around a given cab and or speaker. Two reasons i'm not sure i do in this case. One, i replaced the stock celestion 100 with a EV and the result was a great improvement specially as the volume increases. Certainly they could have spec'd that speaker to be different than they did, as i know for a fact (email to celestion) that fender did have celestion spec it differently than the stock 100. I have read several accounts of speaker swaps that people said were great improvements, and some cheaper then a celestion 100. Second, fender and others often use particle board in cheap amps, perhaps ALWAYS under a certain price point and this amp is only about $300. I think they'd have used PB regardless of what works best. In short, i don't believe fender built the cab or chose the speaker to get the best from it. I believe at this price point cost cutting takes precedence over tone as it relates to the top few % of tone at least. Obviously they aren't going to design a great sounding modeler and cripple it via cab and speaker, but i also believe as long as the amp sounds great with the cost cutting measures they're good with that. I just think they look at the last few % of tone as the point of diminishing returns. Witness the EV and how much better that is. Why not the cab too.

In any case, i didn't want to make this about that, but about the experience of others with PB vs ply/solid wood generally. Lets please look at it from that perspective only.

[tubeswell]

Solid pine cabs with plywood baffles are the way to go for me.

[pdf64]

I seem to recall a post of RG's, in which he related how when putting an amp into production, it was noted that different examples of apparently identical cabs would sound different, even when speakers etc were swapped over.
So quality, as in variance from the norm, may be a reason why construction from more consistent materials, may be preferred by manufacturers.
With natural materials, it may be difficult to avoid building (at least) the occasional duffer.
Of the few I've built, my particle board cabs always seem to sound better than the ply ones.

[J M Fahey]

For practical reasons, because I build a lot of cabs monthly (I'm writing this covered in wood dust from 3 4x10" , 1 2x10" and 2 head cabinets I'm sanding) so I use particle board: I ring the distributor and within 2 or 3 working days (they must pre plan their delivery routes) they unload the 10 sheet pack in my door.

If in a hurry (it always happens), I walk 8 blocks to EASY (South American branch of US Home Depot) and buy the "economy 3 pack" ; absolute worst case a single sheet.

Pine boards here are available only in around 12" width, which is not enough for many projects but worst is that it's "green" wood , so even if oven/kiln dried eventually it takes moisture from air and bends at random so it can't be trusted.

Might work in dry provinces but definitely not in Buenos Aires nor 500/1000 km around us so .......

As of plywood, easily available here is construction grade, only 7 ply, lots of voids, but worst is it splinters a lot, so needs extra sanding and/or filling; in sum, not worth it.

18 ply Baltic Birch? ... they don't even know what I'm talking about.

Besides, if particle board is good enough for VOX, Marshall and lately most big names, who am I to disagree?

Hate MDF: 50% more expensive, 30% heavier, splits at the edges when nailed (particle board is "spongier") , is as damaged by water as chipboard.

Also hate OSB: splinters way worse than cheap plywood and since each wood bit is submerged in hardening rosin, it dulls tools (specially rounding bits) in a jiffy.

[daz]

What is MDF? Is that another similar product to PB? Could that be what my amp is and not PB? How do you tell?

But again, does anyone have any qualified thoughts on ply for baffles vs either MDF of PB?

[Jazz P Bass]

MDF is Medium Density Fiber Board.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium-density_fibreboard

Particle board is lower density, coarser fiber board.

Hard to tell what you have as there are different 'grades' of each.

I would prefer the MDF for a baffle as it is more 'uniform'.

[Gregg]

My 2 cents:

1/ Don't mess with MDF. It's just not for that.
2/ Solid pine? Uhhh no, thanks. Too soft for my taste. Also you have to make sure it's really dry.
3/ PB could be good for Hi-Fi speaker cabinets but for guitar equipment I don't think so. Maybe if you do it for yourself and you're not going to move it around.
4/ Plywood - you can never go wrong with that one. A good quality material is practically indestructible although it could be hard to work with.
Fortunately I have two huge warehouses within 5 km range which carry everything plywood from 6mm to 30mm thick.
And one more thing: because I hate the woodwork in my guts I was "reborn" when I started having it done by somebody on a CNC machine which saves me several hours of work and a nose full of dust.

[Richard]

From what I've heard, particle board has no resonance so it is popular for stereo speakers and such. It's uniform texture makes it well suited to machining and finishing. I don't think it's that strong for holding screws and such. I built a speaker cab out of pine, with a hardwood baffle. Home Depot sells 1x12 pine (actual size 3/4"x11 1/4") boards for like $2-3 linear foot. I've never had a problem with stability although you must select the straight boards they are not that bad. Perhaps it's a better supply or better climate or better luck. The EV speaker is a relatively neutral speaker and likely an improvement over nearly any other speaker.

[tubeswell]

I can see where many people would prefer PB because of its availability, but it really does make inferior sounding cabs to my ear. Pine is lightweight and high-grade timber has good resonance. Dressed solid pine boards in high timber grades in a variety of widths is cheap and plentiful to get in NZ, because it is one of the commodities produced here in vast amounts. In terms of warping etc, pine is soft and its easy to clamp the warping out of the boards when you join the cab. Once pine boards have been jointed into a cab, warping and twisting is not a problem because the box construction forms a rigid frame when its glued. Pine is a relatively soft timber and so it is really easy to cut, machine, drill, plane and sand if you have good sharp tools. It's ideal timber for using tee-nuts with (for speaker mounts/carry handles).

[Steve A.]

What is MDF? Is that another similar product to PB? Could that be what my amp is and not PB? How do you tell?

I think that a trip to a home improvement store or lumber yard could explain that better than any explanation...

Steve A.

[mhuss]

Although I like PB for its deadness and consistency, the weight is a problem, and getting it wet is a big problem.

High quality ply for me.

[tedmich]

Another choice is OSB (oriented strand board), with many liking AdvanTech 22/32, very hard, stiff and water resistant. Heavy though...

[R.G.]

Solid pine: very difficult to get quality timber, and must be edge-glued in widths over about 8". Modern pine in the USA is fast-growing cultivars, and may have growth rings as much as 1/4"/6mm apart. This is NOT the pine cut from old-growth forests that pine-huggers like to imagine. Solid pine is resonant. That is neither good nor bad, just a data point.

Plywood is much stiffer than other forms of wood. Construction plywood is made of the junk-pine trees from above, peeled and laminated. It's junk-pine, but stiffer and less resonant. Hardwood and lumber-core plywood is better quality, almost as stiff, much straighter and less warped, and in general higher quality. Marine quality fir plywood is good stuff. Baltic birch plywood with many plies is speaker cabinet heaven. "Hardwood" plywood is usually hardwood veneer on a junkier hardwood or pine core. But better quality.

Particle board is compressed and glued sawdust. It's less strong, heavy, non-resonant, and not water (or humidity... ) resistant.

MDF is premium-glued wood FIBER, not sawdust. It's a quality product in higher densities, but is even heavier than particle board, and only a bit stronger.

Both PB and MDF make GREAT speaker cabs where the cabs do not need to be moved and can be mechanically reinforced to be rigid. For predictable speaker cabs, you want non-resonant panels, so stiff that they will NOT bend. You want the shape of the air in the cab and its springiness to determine the speaker loading, not the resonances of the cabinet boards.

Then there are guitar cabs. These are essentially not predictable, and often would cause real speaker designers to shudder. Or they have so much empty openings behind the speaker that they don't much matter, except for their board-resonances and how much they don't help the bass response.

So you're firmly into non-design territory.

Some things are clear. Particle board is not rugged enough for guitar speakers that have to be moved. Ask Thomas Organ. It's also too heavy for what it does, which it shares with MDF. You can make good home/hifi speakers out of them, though. Some hifi stuff requires MSF as the premium material.

Plywoods, especially the higher quality ones, like marine, some hardwoods and Baltic fir, are GREAT for guitar cabs that get moved from gig to gig. They are, properly, the standard for cabs for 2x12 and over. For combos, plywood is a good choice, as it can be made more sturdy than pine boards.

Pine combos are fine where they can be used. They're lighter weight for the same strength as plywood in smaller cabs, where you don't have to do precision edge gluing to get wide enough boards. Their resonant "voices" are a matter of personal preference. Some people like blondes, some brunettes, and some like pizza.