About amp "immediacy"

[uneumann]

I talked to my guy and this is what he said:

Immediate: It's like the note comes out almost before you pick it.
Two Rock (a boutique brand)
Tonemaster
Dumble
Boogie Mk I and Mk II

Not Immediate:
Old Deluxe
Tweed Bassman
Any tweed or blackface Fender
Marshall Plexi
Dual Rectifier
SLO
Anything with a rectifier tube.

I'm genuinely interested in this topic which is why I read the thread initially. I probably have played fewer amps than many posting here since I don't do much repair work anymore so my exposure is limited, but I had an opportunity to play a 5e3 (tweed deluxe) clone about a year ago and that amp has stuck in my mind ever since. It had the quality that I associate with "immediate". The tone jumped off my fingers/strings like no other amp I've played - including several other 5e3 clones - and including my own. Knob settings mattered some, but were not crucial. It just did it all the time. To my knowledge the circuit in that amp and others I've played do not vary from the original other than the components used. Of course the PT differences could have changed the B+ voltages, and it did have a rectifier tube. I wish I had dissected that amp before returning it, or at least taken some pictures and measurements, but I didn't, so I have no hard data to offer. However - I'm making the point that at least in this case, a given amp model (and schematic) may not always be immediate or not. Sorry if that muddies the waters...

[netfences]

I broke down the qualities I believe are responsible for immediacy in post #207 of this thread. I have decided to concentrate on an amp head with only tone controls and a presence knob with buffered and unbuffered inputs for FX/Pedals. I also picked a standard PA cabinet to mate it with. If I can get it to sound immediate with that impedance curve, odds are good it will with other cabs too. Escherton suggested we start naming amps to see if we can spot a trend in a prior post and I'm glad to see some trying to do this.

I also had asked for someone to explain the electrical differences between presence and treble tone control. so far, none have taken that up. To answer nosaj, I will be using it for guitar but I don't want it limited to that. As for the notion of the amp being music style specific, my aim is for a more general conclusion of immediacy.

[loudthud]

@Uneumann, Thanks for posting. Nothing here is cast in stone and there is certainly room for variation between amps. I think the fact that one 5E3 stood out is proof of that.

[nosaj]

I also had asked for someone to explain the electrical differences between presence and treble tone control. so far, none have taken that up. To answer nosaj, I will be using it for guitar but I don't want it limited to that. As for the notion of the amp being music style specific, my aim is for a more general conclusion of immediacy.

I think the first thing you should do is go out and find a tweed deluxe and play it. Tweed series amps have their own sound. You need to find an amp that has "immediacy"(hate to say it but musicians terms suck really bad like an audiophiles terms) so that you can share what your talking about. Because right now your only going off what someone told you and who knows you may not even really like it. What city are you in? I'm sure we can find a store near you to sample some amps as long as it's in america and not Panama City Beach because it's a real hellzone down there now(we missed it thank god)
nosaj

[rjb]

Thread-Jack Opportunity

I broke down the qualities I believe are responsible for immediacy in post #207 of this thread.

In post #207 you seem to be leaning toward a hifi amp paired with a small P.A. tower (2x8" + horn).

That got me wondering... where would a Sunn Coliseum P.A. head paired with four 4x12" cabinets be on the "immediacy" spectrum?

[Leo_Gnardo]

@Uneumann, Thanks for posting. Nothing here is cast in stone and there is certainly room for variation between amps. I think the fact that one 5E3 stood out is proof of that.

Given half the battle (at least) is the speaker, I'd have to say a nice simple 5E3 is an excellent candidate especially with a light-cone speaker. I'll mention the bulldog once again. OTOH playing the same amp through a Tone Tubby San Rafael Special, way off at the other end of the scale.

Lose one input channel on the 5E3 and take one step closer to "immediate" nirvana. If you dare. Experiment with solid state or tube rectifier, pick whichever pleases your need for speed the most. Also experiment with power supply capacitance. It could well be that less is more in this case. Swap out the 0.1 uF interstage caps for 0.022. Maybe try Solen "fast" caps, it says "fast" on them, maybe they're fast. Close enough to immediate, no? Heck use Solen "fast" films in the power supply too. Zoom zoom zoom! Only your ears can tell. Twang on, chicken pickers!

Not that this will bring any edification to our OT and his henchpersons. But it may to someone else who's patient enough to ignore their quicksand trap and maybe learn something.

[galaxiex]

I don't remember if this was mentioned (and I'm not going to comb thru the thread to find out),

but would there maybe be some influence from the cab, whether open back, ported or sealed?

The amp schematic I posted (Traynor YGM-3), way back in this thread, has a sealed cab,
and to refresh memories, a Celestion G12H.

[mikepukmel]

Could "immediacy" be related to "touch sensitivity"? I've heard that term more often than immediacy.

[uneumann]

Given half the battle (at least) is the speaker, I'd have to say a nice simple 5E3 is an excellent candidate especially with a light-cone speaker. I'll mention the bulldog once again. OTOH playing the same amp through a Tone Tubby San Rafael Special, way off at the other end of the scale.

My recollection is the spkr in the 5e3 I played was a Celestion Blue. The cab was "standard" open back for a 5e3. I don't have a Blue to try with my 5e3 clone, but I use a Gold and I don't considers my amp/spkr to be "immediate".
It's good, but it does not do what I'd call "immediate".

[eschertron]

A few (hundred?) posts back, someone mentioned the speaker as a potential key to understanding the immediacy problem. Lighter, lower power speakers seem likely to accelerate faster. Some amps are closer to the limit of amp power -> speaker handling capacity than others, i.e., less mechanical resistance in the speaker per Watt output power. Are we coming back to the 'slew rate' idea again, except this time it's the slew (hysteresis) in the speaker cone response and nothing to do with the amp itself?

[Leo_Gnardo]

My recollection is the spkr in the 5e3 I played was a Celestion Blue. The cab was "standard" open back for a 5e3. I don't have a Blue to try with my 5e3 clone, but I use a Gold and I don't considers my amp/spkr to be "immediate".
It's good, but it does not do what I'd call "immediate".

If I'm not mistook, the Gold is a heavier duty version of the Blue. Meaning, more mass in the voice coil and likely a heavier cone besides. About the San Rafael, it's intentionally murky sounding, which can tame a very bright amp. It's certainly not for everybody but some of my customers love it.

[uneumann]

If I'm not mistook, the Gold is a heavier duty version of the Blue. Meaning, more mass in the voice coil and likely a heavier cone besides.

Are we coming back to the 'slew rate' idea again, except this time it's the slew (hysteresis) in the speaker cone response and nothing to do with the amp itself?

Tempting conclusion. Could it be that simple? Even if not all of the answer, perhaps a significant factor?
Some impulse response characteristic of the spkr? Someone out there with experience using Blues care to comment?

Since I have been obsessing over this for a while now - I'll bring up something tangential, but maybe relevant. Guitars seem to have "immediate" character too. I recently played a P90 Epiphone Wilshire reissue. It makes my amp sound "immediate" in ways other guitars do not. Notes have a pop/ping and percussive character. I've heard that "ping" is a guitar character people talk about. I've played P90s before and I'm a long time Telecaster player. The Wilshire has an "immediate" character - the others do not - at least not on my amps. So, if spkr impulse response is a factor, maybe guitar "ping" arises from a similar factor in the guitar mechanics. Just throwing stuff out there....

[nosaj]

Tempting conclusion. Could it be that simple? Even if not all of the answer, perhaps a significant factor?
Some impulse response characteristic of the spkr? Someone out there with experience using Blues care to comment?

Since I have been obsessing over this for a while now - I'll bring up something tangential, but maybe relevant. Guitars seem to have "immediate" character too. I recently played a P90 Epiphone Wilshire reissue. It makes my amp sound "immediate" in ways other guitars do not. Notes have a pop/ping and percussive character. I've heard that "ping" is a guitar character people talk about. I've played P90s before and I'm a long time Telecaster player. The Wilshire has an "immediate" character - the others do not - at least not on my amps. So, if spkr impulse response is a factor, maybe guitar "ping" arises from a similar factor in the guitar mechanics. Just throwing stuff out there....

The amp is also part of the instrument the guitar is the other half. Which is what I think the OP doesn't understand. He needs to go play , ignore the sound engineer portion of his thoughts and just go play different things that is the only way to find what you like.
nosaj

[Leo_Gnardo]

The Wilshire has an "immediate" character - the others do not - at least not on my amps. So, if spkr impulse response is a factor, maybe guitar "ping" arises from a similar factor in the guitar mechanics. Just throwing stuff out there....

Could be the pickups yes, but don't discount the strings. Using anything special on the Wilshire? When I made a living stringing lots of gee-tars I found Markley's Blue Ice strings had a noticeable zip-a-dee-doo-dah over other brands. No fooling! Honest Inj....... uh, Native American! I'm sure that translates as "ping." Combine a 5E3 with fresh tubes with a Blue Bulldog & Blue Ice strings, you should be able to split diamonds. Blue diamonds at that.

[DrGonz78]

Could "immediacy" be related to "touch sensitivity"? I've heard that term more often than immediacy.

I am on board to say touch sensitivity is what immediacy is trying to define. Like on a Gibson GA-6 that I had worked on recently that was very touch sensitive.

Now the first tube stages on that amp are grid leak biased 12ax7. I elected to install a 12au7 to reduce gain since the amp was so damn loud!! Even with the 12au7 it was still a really loud amp. I think what happens with grid leak bias relates best to the term touch sensitivity. That when playing quieter passages on the guitar it will sound clean and as you dig into the attack it start distort signal ever slightly. Now there is difference here with which guitar you choose. Hotter humbucker pickups will produce a stronger signal than single coil thus given less clean headroom.

The term immediacy could also relate to the sag on the power supply as the signal is played through the amp. A rectifier tube will produce more sag on the power supply and this results in a deeper compressed attack sound from the amp. Whereas a bridge or diode rectification will make it less compressed as a whole, tighter. These were the ideas rattling around my head to help define immediacy in a tube amp. I didn't even feel a need to address the differences between tube and SS amps.

The example of the Gibson GA-6 amp included a very nice 1958 Jensen speaker. The right speaker will make about any type of amp come to life.