small amps in a classic rock band setting....just an observation

[daz]

Well, i have come to realize i must be different than everyone else with respect to opinions about small amps in a band setting. I don't like cranked amps ! Maybe non master amps w/o high gain preamps, but those are not even a considerations for me as i don't like relying on the room to allow loud or having to rely on pedals. I actually prefer cascaded preamps types with the master under 1/2, something that was easy with my 50 watt marshalls i used to gig with for many years. Those never got past 4 on the master. And we aren't a killing loud band either. As most here know by my never ending posts, i've been configuring a 18 watt 6V6 amp with a 3 stage preamp and it just sounds fabulous till it gets really loud at which point it becomes a wild animal. Even with the gain down it's like the output is adding too much drive at band levels. Yes, been considering a high sensitivity speaker but so far haven't found the right deal on the right speaker.

Today i'm heading out for another play with the band and the amp sounds very different than it did last time with the changes i made. But i have little doubt i will have the same issue. I just don't understand the whole small amp thing at all except and unless no one uses them with a cascaded preamp. I suppose thats the only reason i seem to be the only person on earth that dislikes it. If it sounds as great as it now does but the volume thing is still an issue i think i will pass on the louder speaker and go for a new PT and possibly OT if i can't make my 6.6k OT become efficient (use different tap than the speaker ohms?) for EL34s or 6L6. And if i do that i will either replace the board and components (it's a hideous slop fest) or may well just build an entire mew amp. I think it could be a great amp as it is if i could get 30-50 watts from it. But for me a cascaded preamp is essential and in a 18 watt amp that's just not a good combo imo. In fact i don't think i would want to use any amp again in that range of power other then as a home amp. I need control and more watts gives me that all the way till it's much louder then i would ever use. With a good preamp thats the ideal as far as i'm concerned. Small amps are indeed as has traditionally be said, practice amps. Just thought i'd post my opinion. But who knows, after tonite maybe i will be eating my words but if i had to wager i'd say i won't. (one bet i'd LIKE to lose )

[Helmholtz]

I thought that was all clear from your last thread?

Rock players using a small (say below 25W) single speaker amp need the amp being miked on stage.

You can't fool physics with some preamp mods.

[daz]

Yeah but i'm just observing the fact that at some point in the last 20 years or more people started citing small amps like this as the way to go so you can turn em up. This is the first time i've used an amp this low power in a band setting and it was just kinda surprising to me how wrong that notion is, at least for me. Like i said tho, tonite i hope to be proven wrong even tho i can't imagine that. At least i'd like it to work out better then the first time and i think it will given the way it sounds now. Hopefully enough to at least decide whether it's worth upgrading it to a louder amp. Speaking of which, if i get a PT for 6L6 or EL34s, will my 6.6k OT be able to optimally (or close) run one r the other by using a different tap higher or lower then the speaker IMP? (i'd be getting a 8 ohm if i do this) If i recall EL34's want 3.4k. So running a 8 ohm speaker off the 4 or 16 tap (not sure which way to go) should be close for EL34, no? 6.6k/2=3.3k. so thinking i'd use the 4 ohm tap?

[Helmholtz]

So running a 8 ohm speaker off the 4 or 16 tap (not sure which way to go) should be close for EL34, no? 6.6k/2=3.3k. so thinking i'd use the 4 ohm tap?

Yes, running an 8 Ohm speaker off your 16 Ohm OT tap would give a primary impedance of 3.3k.
But the halved primary impedance would mean doubled OT currents.
Means that OT losses will increase by almost a factor of 4, lowering available output and increasing winding temperature.
So your 30W OT might turn into a 24W OT.

Another problem would be specifying and finding a PT that doesn't allow the stronger tubes to exceed the OT power limit.

I strongly recommend to get matching PT and OT for EL34s, i.e. both supporting an output of say 50W.

[Greg_L]

Yeah but i'm just observing the fact that at some point in the last 20 years or more people started citing small amps like this as the way to go so you can turn em up. This is the first time i've used an amp this low power in a band setting and it was just kinda surprising to me how wrong that notion is, at least for me. Like i said tho, tonite i hope to be proven wrong even tho i can't imagine that. At least i'd like it to work out better then the first time and i think it will given the way it sounds now. Hopefully enough to at least decide whether it's worth upgrading it to a louder amp. Speaking of which, if i get a PT for 6L6 or EL34s, will my 6.6k OT be able to optimally (or close) run one r the other by using a different tap higher or lower then the speaker IMP? (i'd be getting a 8 ohm if i do this) If i recall EL34's want 3.4k. So running a 8 ohm speaker off the 4 or 16 tap (not sure which way to go) should be close for EL34, no? 6.6k/2=3.3k. so thinking i'd use the 4 ohm tap?

I don't like small amps either. They're fine for dinking around at home. But playing live....gimme the power even if I don't use all of it. I want the headroom.

[daz]

Well, last nite the second outing with it. Once again used my modeler all nite because the amp just didn't cut it. I can't deny how good that modeler is. I just turn it on and go and tone and feel just have me happy with the tone all nite. I know it's not supposed to be like that but it's undeniable. I've had some damn fine tube amps but when it comes down to it, the REAL marker for a great amp is you aren't tweaking knobs all nite and thinking about whats not sounding or feeling right. You are only thinking about the music and playing. I think i may just pass on the tubes yet again. 20 Lbs, built in tuner, every effect known to man, about 30 models and cabinets. It makes no sense i even bothers with tubes. I may mess around with the tubes just for kicks still and maybe one day i'll hit on some magic combination. But for band use i just sticking with the modeler as i have for years now.

[J M Fahey]

When playing in a band setting, you need to at least match the drummer.

Which means around 50W into a good quality single 12 meaning a normal Eminence or Celestion or "Factory supplied black speaker" which 90% of the time IS an OEM Eminence.

I am sick of watching kids playing live in a Club with a 2 x EL84 amp and **barely** making it, and that with zero headroom, amp crunching all the time.

And that, plugging into a 4 x 12" or at least into 2 x 12" with top Celestions (V30/G12T class and similar) which kinda defeats the concept of "small light handy" amplifier, doesn´t it?

FWIW I am currently (as in NOW, just stopped for a cup of Coffee) designing a backpack/lunchbox amplifier to be introduced next week at a local Amp, Pedal and Guitar Expo, think Microterror, Joyo Bantam, Peavey mini 6505 class ... but I am making mine 50W, instead of the customary 20W (which are actually closer to 15W ) precisely to be usable in a rehearsal/small Club situation with a matching 1 x12" or 2 x 10" cabinet.

All those shine and sound very good ... in a bedroom ....... specially because officially suggested/matching speaker is a shoebox sized 8" one.

Only problem is that all those are designed to run from a Laptop 19V "brick" supply .... which severely limits power out; you can´t beat Physics, I was forced to add an iron PT, making +/-35V rails.

Perfect for an LM3886 but since they disappeared and only Fakes remain, I had also needed to design and build a discrete power amp, using TIP Darlingtons to keep it reasonably compact.

Oh well, nothing good is easy or effortless.

Pity my Laser printer just died ... Murphy´s Law

[walkman]

What kind of rock band setting are you talking about? I remember playing with a 74 twin reverb in a small venue, and turning it up very high and I still couldn’t hear myself clearly over the drummer. That said the stage was so small that there was no way I could stand a decent way back from my amp even though the whole experience was deafening. Never had guitar in foldback in small gigs. On the other hand I was mixing a gig at a small venue and the band had Marshall half stack and I had the guitarist turn down to between 1 and 2 on the dial so I could get a decent front of house mix. Small amps will work when the foldback is good, the mixer is good and when there is space in the music and the mix