Chinese and Russian tubes

[überfuzz]

I skimmed through a tube vendors site looking for some tube accessories. There are quite a lot of different tube models. When I started to look around I see that most of the tubes are the same no matter which shop it is. I guess most of them are made in Russia or China. Some shops are reluctant so say so some others are frank about it. So this time I happened to be on a site with info that seemed to be honest. I mailed and they told me that they manufacture their tubes in China. They also told me that they're constantly trying to improve the quality etc on these tubes.

Up until quite recent I was quite anal about my gear. But I happened to ebay a reissue Hagström Viking a while back, yes folks I'm from Sweden. First I was surprised about the quality comparing it to the real deal made in Sweden. Now during the last year it has moved up the scale and is now my workhorse nr 1. Why this little story you might wonder. Well I just started to wonder if I should be more serious about Chinese and Russian tubes. Are there good tubes to be found..? Any suggestions?

[JoeM]

Unless you buy NOS American or GB tubes, what choice do you have?

[ThermionicScott]

The Chinese 12AX7s used to be highly-praised for sound and microphonics.

It's not about the country, it's the process and the QC going into the products.

- Scott

[überfuzz]

I don't really know, but I figure I'd try some to see for myself. Like I said, I'd like to get suggestions on some new tubes to try.

There are some labeled Chinese tubes sold by The Tube store called Preferred edition, or something like that, and over by Watford valves they have a tube series called Harma. I wouldn't be surprised if they're all manufactured in some factory in China. However, it seems folks on different forums are quite pleased with them...

Then there's Tung-Sol which I believe is manufactured in Russia. Some of their tubes are getting good reviews to.

Anyone reviewed them on MEF?

Edit, missed your post. Might be so, in that case it's the process of finding the right tube I guess.

[überfuzz]

Mhmm, no one has tried them or no one's interested. Ah well...

[MWJB]

Harma tubes do not come from one specific factory, or country of origin, they are "selected" tubes from various manufacturers (can be current production, or NOS depending on the tube in question - I have had Harma tubes made by Reflector (Sovtek/EH/Tung Sol RI etc), SED Winged C (Russia), JJ (Slovakia) & Phillips/Sylvania (USA)...probably more besides, but these are the ones that I know of.

It is confusing because so many re-sellers re-brand stuff (or factories supply marked up to their spec) but there are excellent current production tubes available from Russia, Slovakia & China (the only countries that manufacture tubes for guitar amps at the moment). In fact, the most expensive amps on the market use these tubes, largely because they need plentiful & reliable supplies & because reject rate of "picked over" NOS stock was getting unfeasibly high (these same manufacturers often offer NOS items at an upcharge, but it's more economically viable for the end user to experiment here). Talk to your tube vendor in person for specific recommendations.

+1 on what Scott says. Guys who sell lots of tubes have QC procedures to weed out problematic tubes (whether NOS or current production) & usually provide a warranty.

[überfuzz]

It's very confusing!

I found a little guide: Guide over presently manufactured tubes.

[MWJB]

Then make life easy for yourself, determine what kind of tube you need, how much you are willing to pay & buy from a vendor who supplies advice & a warranty. If you need 3 or 4x 12AX7 for example, buy different brands & see which you prefer. In the typical amp, different preamp tubes (V1, V2, V3 etc.) do different jobs, different tubes might suit different applications better.

You can't categorise a tube's tone simply by knowing its country of origin, different batches from the same manufacturer sound different anyway (unless pre-selected for certain characteristics). One factory might make different lines for several end suppliers (like Luxottica make Ray Ban, Police, Persol, Arnette sunglasses), some countries have more than one factory...all the products sound different. There are great tubes from the past that still have not been surpassed, however the idea that all NOS tubes sound better than all current production is a fallacy. Look at it like speakers, as long as they are reliable, one that sounds good to you is good. If you don't like one, it doesn't matter who made it. The same tube can perform wildly differently in different amps/circuits, I might not go as far as to say that "there is no such thing as a bad (reliable) tube", but even the cheapest tube, with a relatively poor rep can surprise you in some applications.

So, don't worry about country of origin.

[überfuzz]

Ehh... I thought it was clear that I've been rethinking me opinion regarding tubes origin, gear in general. But anyhow, do you have any suggestions? Have you tried Tung-Sol ECC803 Gold?

[MWJB]

"Have you tried Tung-Sol ECC803 Gold?" No.

JJECC83 are middle of the road, rich sounding, not so keen on their 12AT7 prefer to go NOS Phillips there, JJ 6V6 are a safe bet. Their 6L6 is tough & fine for most applications.

EH 12AY7 - it's the only one made today, but stands up well. EH 6V6 is often though to be "softer" than the JJ.

SED Winged C 6550 is popular, I quite like their KT88 too.

Russian 5Y3 is fine for amps that don't push the B+ on the power tube plates & cathode biased amps that have headroom on plaet current, but NOS stocks are still plentiful for old Deluxes etc.

Really, it's all relative, depending on what the tube is going into...?

[überfuzz]

Thanks!

Actually, I've been burned out on JJ tubes. I bought some ECC83s to use while firing up home brewed amps. First batch 3 out of 6 were bad. 1 out of the 3 replacement, vendor just shipped them without asking for 3 bad tubes, tubes were bad. Further, the functional tubes I finally ended up with, my opinion is that they are noisy and unreliable. They might be great for others, but me... I don't know.

I'm looking for a tube that's quite linear. A dream come true would be a tube that could go into all my amps without messing things up. Tubes that function in North American styled amp. I'm not into überdistortion a-la Marshall break up... Just me thinking freely.

[überfuzz]

Update on harma/Watford Valves, or no update actually...

Last weekend I mailed for the second time and asked a couple of questions, still no reply. Anyhow they have a tube called Harma ECC83-STR. Supposedly it has the notorious spanngitter, or frame grid in English. Anyone with more insights on this?

Are there any contemporary tubes with frame grids? I thought no...

[Pedro Vecino]

Currently there are many 12Ax7 models on the market, but all are developed from three or four basic models.
Russia: (Reflector and Svetlana) 12AX7WA / WB / WC / WXT / LP / LPS / EH / Svetlana box anode / Mullard / Tung Sol...
Slovakia (JJ): ECC83 / ECC83 gold pins / ECC803 (long plates)
China (Shuguang): Basically the same classic model: 12AX7A/B/HG ... (infinite nomenclatures submitted by distributors)
and the "Mullard Style" (a different model)
Russian 12Ax7´s are characterized by having too much compression. This is best seen on high gain amps. Among the Russians, I think the basic models that are needed for know the "family" are WC / LPS / Tung Sol. WB model is the darkest of all. It may be useful using it carefully.
The most linear model for me is LPS.
Among the Slovakian, the traditional model ECC83 S. Gold pins version is the same texture but brighter.
Among the Chinese, the classical model (found variations through selection by TAD, for example) and the model "Mullard Style" (across TAD or Groove Tubes). This tube is different from all others. Is more similar to classical European NOS Philips/Brimar/TFK... but with a distance with them..

If I were to recommend a small number of representative models, would be:
Russian WC / WB / LPS / Tung Sol / Chinese / JJ / Chinese "Mullard Style".

The problem is that all have some "negative" aspects: high/nonlinear compression, harmonic swirls, lack of treble extension, acid/abrasive character in overdrive, lack of agility (speed of response), etc.., therefore usually is not desirable to use all of the same model because the presence of certain "flaws" are multiplied. There are always exceptions, but ...
If I had all the necessary units of NOS tubes (Mullard, Dutch Philips, Brimar, TFK, Tungsram, RFT, Tesla, GE, Raytheon, American Tung Sol, RCA, Matsushita, NEC ...) I would use modern 12Ax7´s only for vibrato circuits (also would be fun to shoot them). All except the traditional Chinese model, associated with the sound of high gain amps in the last twenty five years. Now I have to juggle combining them.

The best thing is to know their structures and know how to differentiate. This way there is no possible error in interpreting the nomenclature used by distributors.
Sorry for the brick and my poor english.

PD: Harma ECC83-STR is Solvakian JJ ECC83

[überfuzz]

Yes about the Harma tube, I guess it's obvious, if you read between the lines, so to speak. Thanks for an insightful post!

(I didn't want anyone to get the assumption that a tube is great just because it has a frame grid. It's like cars all have tiers. A Skoda doesn't compare to a Mercedes just because it has windshield wipers.)

[ctcpete]

Thanks for the great info here guys although for me it may be overload. I am mainly a guitarist and occasional amp tinkerer (so far pretty lucky, thanks to good assistance here).

I'm looking for some new pre amp tubes for my old Blackfaced 73 Twin. I'm willing to buy several brands to mix and match but nothing too expensive. Any general recommendations welcome (types as well as vendors). For inputs V1 and V2 and V4 (vib channel /reverb amp) which where 7025's, are "low noise" 12 ax7s a good bet? How about V6 phase inverter? Thanks in advance.