yone make a delay that senses input signal....

[daz]

By the way, just to clarify and eliminate confusion, the reason the amp didn't clean up much when the guitar was on 5 is i never adjusted the out level to the amp which was obviously much too hot. But it has no bearing on whether it would do this. I just didn't bother because i haven't used this DSP since probably the 80s and the interface is confusing so i left the out level where it was which was set for line level use with a PA years ago. Had the level been low enough for the amp input same result would have happened except the guitar would have gotten clean when on 5. There is a physical INPUT level knob and that WAS adjusted, i just didn't want to figure out how to adjust it in the patch.
If this makes anyone suspicious that had it been set right the phenomenon wouldn't happen i will make another video and figure out how to get the patch level output right for guitar amp input. But trust me, the result is ALWAYS going to be the same regardless. Even pedal delays that are designed only for guitar to amp input levels do it just the same, but if u must question it i'll make another video and get the levels right.

[Mick Bailey]

Just in case I wasn't going insane I just tried my guitar>delay>distorted Sessionette 75 amp and I don't get the same result; I back off the guitar to clean things up and the delay is still there, pretty much in proportion. I was wondering what situation could cause the relative clean/delay signal levels to alter (other than any noise reduction inside the pedal). Because the delay repeats are at a lower amplitude than the dry signal, could it be that when the guitar is on 10, is the dry signal getting clipped more than the wet and this is altering the effective mix? In other words, the dynamic range of the dry signal is reduced relative to the wet when the amp is clipping harder (because the wet is not being clipped as much as the dry).

[daz]

Just in case I wasn't going insane I just tried my guitar>delay>distorted Sessionette 75 amp and I don't get the same result; I back off the guitar to clean things up and the delay is still there, pretty much in proportion. I was wondering what situation could cause the relative clean/delay signal levels to alter (other than any noise reduction inside the pedal). Because the delay repeats are at a lower amplitude than the dry signal, could it be that when the guitar is on 10, is the dry signal getting clipped more than the wet and this is altering the effective mix? In other words, the dynamic range of the dry signal is reduced relative to the wet when the amp is clipping harder (because the wet is not being clipped as much as the dry).

"pretty much"? Theres likely a reason that you aren't getting as MUCH of a difference, but from "pretty much" i assume there is a difference but you don't get as much as i do. Maybe no treble bleed in your guitars/ I could see how that would lessen the difference. Or you aren't using much OD. The less drive the less the phenomenon. I get the same result and have with dozens of delays into every imaginable amp. Unfortunately i have no experience with a "sessionette" and no idea how much distortion it will generate. But if you have an amp i am familiar with i could tell you where to set the drive and you would absolutely get the same result unless a treble bleed affects the result. But i have had everything from early simple basic analog delay pedals to digital since the 70s and owned more amps than i could eve recall and every single amp and delay has always had the same result. It's the main reason effects loops exist.

Oh, and how much are you backing the guitar off? Depending on settings i can back off down to 7 without any difference. But once i hit 5-6 it disappears. Set the amp so theres about the level of distortion you would hear in a song like whats your name by skynard then back off to 5. I'd bet my life you will hear what i did because like i said thru probably 100 amps and 50 delays not once did this NOT happen.

[Greg Robinson]

This is exactly the expected behaviour. Delay before dirt = compressed repeats, so the mix can be much lower. If you turn down to clean up though they vanish into nothing because you're losing that compression that the clipping gives you.
So yeah, the answer is an effects loop. There is NO simple way for anything in front of the amp to be able to compand the repeats to account for the compression caused by the amp. A pedal in front of the amp can't tell what the amps input sensitivity is or how you've got it set. Sure, you could come up with a convoluted sideband key-in compander that samples the output of the amp, but an effects loop is a much simpler solution and would also provide better results.

Sorry, but you're going to be either stuck with your current wet/dry setup, or need to add an effects loop to your main amp.

[daz]

This is exactly the expected behaviour. Delay before dirt = compressed repeats, so the mix can be much lower. If you turn down to clean up though they vanish into nothing because you're losing that compression that the clipping gives you.
So yeah, the answer is an effects loop. There is NO simple way for anything in front of the amp to be able to compand the repeats to account for the compression caused by the amp. A pedal in front of the amp can't tell what the amps input sensitivity is or how you've got it set. Sure, you could come up with a convoluted sideband key-in compander that samples the output of the amp, but an effects loop is a much simpler solution and would also provide better results.

Sorry, but you're going to be either stuck with your current wet/dry setup, or need to add an effects loop to your main amp.

Yep, but 2 thing have me scratching my head....why some here seem to not notice it and 2, why doesn't anyone make a delay that would sense the input signal and lower the wet signal? Seems they could easily do it and you'd have a delay you could use before the distortion. They could even make it adjustable for the sensitivity so you can use it normally too or adjust it to perfectly stay at the same mix level with any rig. I'd sure as H by one ! I went thru many iterations of a loop in this amp and never got good results so i have to use a second amp for delay which is a PITA.

[Helmholtz]

I can understand that the compression involved with heavy distortion will exaggerate the lower level delay signal wrt the clean signal.
Still surprized that the delay signal gets inaudible with low guitar signal.

Can you do me a favor and try a clean amp setting with the same delay setting and lowered guitar signal (say vol. at 5) as in your video.
Does the delay signal vanish as with amp distorting?

[daz]

I can understand that the compression involved with heavy distortion will exaggerate the lower level delay signal wrt the clean signal.
Still surprized that the delay signal gets inaudible with low guitar signal.

Can you do me a favor and try a clean amp setting with the same delay setting and lowered guitar signal (say vol. at 5) as in your video.
Does the delay signal vanish as with amp distorting?

I don't have to, i can tell you right now it won't happen with clean sounds. It is distortion that causes it. As you know distortion is created by multiplying the signal many times over. When a delay is sent to the distortion stage it gets amplified and therefore louder same as the dry signal. So when they are both subjected to that the delay signal and dry end up being the same loudness. Same as when you turn a amp up to it's max head room and anything after that gets more distorted but not louder. So both the dry and delay signals end up the same volume and now have a tone of delay, more than is sane unless you want a super outer space effect. Of course u can lower the delay till it;s just a touch. But then when you lower the signal the opposite happens. So it doesn't happen with clean unless your amp gets turned up till the output section distorts. Then your delay will again go thru the roof. In fact, i sold a marshall origin because of that exact issue. It was a 20 watt amp that barely got loud enough for band use so at home at low volume it was fine. But loud the output section would start distorting and the delay would go thru the roof, and this was with the delay IN THE EFFECTS LOOP ! In this unique case a loop didn't help because the distortion was happening AFTER the loop....in the PA section. So no need to try it with clean. I already know that works fine. The problem is, i use a distorted amp then lower my guitar volume to get my cleans. If i just used a clean amp it wouldn't be an issue. I'm still shocked anyone doesn't understand this. A few did but i have to think those who don't use their gear differently. mostly clean probably of pedals for OD with delay AFTER.

[The Dude]

I don't understand why you'd want a delay before distortion anyway, unless you're after some oddball effect. You want to delay the guitar sound as it exists- distorted or not. In other words, I don't want distortion on my delay. I want delay on my distorted sound. It's a subtle difference, but obviously you know that given the thread. The solution, as explained, is to add an effects loop. If your distortion is from clipping power amp tubes, I'm not aware of a solution.

[Helmholtz]

The point of trying it with clean amp but low guitar vol. setting would have been to eliminate a gating effect with your delay.

[daz]

I don't understand why you'd want a delay before distortion anyway, unless you're after some oddball effect. You want to delay the guitar sound as it exists- distorted or not. In other words, I don't want distortion on my delay. I want delay on my distorted sound. It's a subtle difference, but obviously you know that given the thread. The solution, as explained, is to add an effects loop. If your distortion is from clipping power amp tubes, I'm not aware of a solution.

I think i already explained it, but i don't want delay b4 distortion but it's my only choice in order to not have to do what i am doing now which is run a second amp as full wet delay. Thats why i wondered and asked if anyone made a delay that senses signal strength and adjusts the repeat levels accordingly. I went thru trying to put a loop in it several years back mostly with chuck helping me and no matter what design we tried nothing worked well so i gave up. I even put a 4th 9 pin socket in for it but even with a tube driving the loop it never worked right.

[daz]

The point of trying it with clean amp but low guitar vol. setting would have been to eliminate a gating effect with your delay.

Again, it happens with ALL delays from my first electro harmonix slapback in the 70s to my old boss analog and several other analogs from the 70s or early 80s then a bunch of digitals, DSPs, you name it. ALL do it and i assure you every delay i have ever used were not all gated.

[Mick Bailey]

I've given the idea of a delay that senses input signal level some thought and it's fairly straightforward using a side-chain level sense circuit (op-amp buffer followed by an op-amp precision rectifier to provide an averaged and smoothed DC level that varies with signal level) This is then feeds a voltage controlled crossfader that sets the output mix at the appropriate ratio between 100% wet and 100% dry. It could be built as a standalone pedal with guitar input, output, and a send/return for the delay (set to 100% wet). When you turn the guitar volume down, the mix alters towards 'more wet', when turned up, it shifts towards 'more dry'. Controls for minimum delay (volume rolled off) and maximum delay (volume up full) could be incorporated.

The downside I see is that as the guitar note decays the mix would shift towards wet (how would the circuit distinguish between a decaying note and one where the volume had been turned down?) This could perhaps be reduced somewhat by altering the latency characteristics of the rectifier - even to the extent of having a decay control on the smoothing capacitor to alter the time factor, like you'd have with a simple envelope shaper.

[Chuck H]

... using a side-chain level sense circuit (op-amp buffer followed by an op-amp precision rectifier to provide an averaged and smoothed DC level that varies with signal level) This is then feeds a voltage controlled crossfader that sets the output mix at the appropriate ratio between 100% wet and 100% dry. It could be built as a standalone pedal with guitar input, output, and a send/return for the delay (set to 100% wet). When you turn the guitar volume down, the mix alters towards 'more wet', when turned up, it shifts towards 'more dry'.

Something like this?

from post #2

.., you could always run a compressor and delay in series (or delay and compressor, try it both ways) and then run those parallel to the other effects on the pedal board that don't need delay. I think that could get pretty close. The important detail is that you still need to run your guitar signal parallel to the compressor/delay or delay/compressor unit somehow.

[Mick Bailey]

I wasn't thinking of a compressor, but more along the lines of how I'd achieve this with an analog synth using voltage control and applying this to guitar and preserving the original dynamics - in effect auto panning between wet and dry, or somewhere in between. I get your point, though - your suggestion could be the simplest way, rather than building dedicated unit. I have a Milk Box compressor that's pretty good, as well as a DIY optical comp that I'll try with a delay as an experiment.

[Chuck H]

I wasn't thinking of a compressor, but more along the lines of how I'd achieve this with an analog synth using voltage control and applying this to guitar and preserving the original dynamics - in effect auto panning between wet and dry, or somewhere in between. I get your point, though - your suggestion could be the simplest way, rather than building dedicated unit. I have a Milk Box compressor that's pretty good, as well as a DIY optical comp that I'll try with a delay as an experiment.

Interested to see if it works out. My suggestion was the first response and Daz was outy when I mentioned that the guitar signal would have to be rigged parallel. I honestly can't think of an in line way to make it work unless a box were built that DID parallel the signals inside. So what's the difference?