definitlely low tech, curious anyway.

[kilphody]

Greetings to all. It's funny(ironic?) that since this thread started I've been using a heavy pick for a few things on occasion. Mixed results and feelings, but the tones and the music is NEW, which at my age can only be a good thing. Thank you music-electronics-forum. I'm keeping my old Rick 12st fingers only for now,lol.
Now David's got me thinking about the speed/flex relationship. Time to dig out the Aqua Puss and shred!

[tonequester]

tonequester here.

Equally thankful for this forum, and all whom I have had the pleasure of "hearing" from. Sorry about the screwed up posts as I had a keyboard sensitivity problem, n.ow
resolved. The brass pick as it stands now, is large in size but not in weight. I have found that it is Naval brass, a dirrerent alloy than the usual brass found these days. The profile is almost
exactly the same as the pic that Chuck H was good enough to post. It mic's out at .030". It isn't as stiff as I would have thought it would be. I grip it, and all picks, close to the tip like
Steve Conner mentioned. I actually believe that it does flex a bit. I play blues/jazz strings(at least according to d'Addario) with a first string of .011. No sign of increased string breakage,
although I rarely do. After several hours of hard playing I can notice any damage to the pick, that I can see or feel. I must admit that sooner or later, it seems to me that something has to give. However, the tone is, in my opinion, better than any Tortex, Nylon, or celluloid type that I've tried. There is an increase in acoustic volume and sustain. It has a "chimey" quality with
a gentler attack, and it can really scream if you drive home your attack. Now that I have properly scored the gripping area, I no longer have any problems with it shifting around in my hacked up finger tips, which has always been a problem with me using "plastic". Other than practice, I had gotten in the habit of useing a shot of craft type, spray tacky adhesive before I would play. Now I don't have to worry about useing too little, too much, nor do I have to let it dry for 5-10 minutes before touching anything. As mentioned before, nothing is much more than the individuals choice of pick. Now all I have to do is get everything else right. With the help I've so far gotten here, it's just a matter of time. Thanks to all who posted to such a
mundane query.

I thank you in advance for the great round of applause that I'm about to get. Bo Diddley. Tonequester.

[Chuck H]

toneq I have found that it is Naval brass, a dirrerent alloy than the usual brass found these days...

the tone is, in my opinion, better than any Tortex, Nylon, or celluloid type that I've tried. There is an increase in acoustic volume and sustain. It has a "chimey" quality with a gentler attack, and it can really scream if you drive home your attack...

Sounds like you need to salvage at least a couple of old phones. NOS is best. The older ones are made with beter materials. The newer phone bells were all made in Russia or China.

[tonequester]

Phones to picks.

Sounds like you need to salvage at least a couple of old phones. NOS is best. The older ones are made with beter materials. The newer phone bells were all made in Russia or China.

tonequester here.


Thanks for the advice on the older phones Chuck H ! I think that i got luck on my first experience. The phone was made of Bakelite and didn't say "Made in
China" anywhere. There was a Western Electric logo and print on a very yellow "sticker". Just by the style of the phones appearance, it looked like something that was
even older than i am, and I'm F_____g OLD ! I'll keep your advice as I have come into a few mo re to check out. My neighbor spent his whole career with Bell Telephones, the major portion converting out of the way places to touch-tone and digital components. Thanks again, and have a great day! tonequester.

[Chuck H]

I was actually making a mock simile to the way players regard tubes, capacitors, etc. Please don't take what I said as actual information.

[tonequester]

Sounds like you need to salvage at least a couple of old phones. NOS is best. The older ones are made with beter materials. The newer phone bells were all made in Russia or China.

tonequester here.

O.K. funny guy. That N.O.S. thing and the "Bells of russia and China" caught me asleep at the wheel. After finishing with the forum i actually gave some thought as to how long the old phones had been made overseas. I didn't even clue in until your last post. Seriously, I wouldn't be all that surprised to find out that even in the days of that old phones manufacturing, perhaps the damned bell was Chinese. I should be more on the ball. My dad was buy AMERICAN all the way(retired from Ford), and I was a Teamster in my day. I try to buy U.S.A. but it's getting awful hard to do so, especially if you have to shop Walmart as I do. Tubes are a different story. I just got some N.O.S. tubes for my HT-1R(if I ever get one back that works). I'm ditching the Sovteks and putting in some American types. The price was more than twice the price of new Sovteks, and I'll bet they will sound a little better.
About the amp thing I'm mulling over, Watt tube amp as pre-amp for a s.s. 20Watt bridged power amp(2xTDA2003 I.C.'s). The specs for the power amp kit and the TDA 2003's themselves leave alot to be desired. The s.s. amp has an input Z of 150kOhms. However, I don't have the slightest about a max allowable input V. or I. I don't know what the tube's output V. oir I. is either. Impedance matching is probably the least of my worries. I can take signal from the tube amp from it's speaker out, or from am emulated speaker'hjeadphone jack. The speaker out is 8 Ohms but I have no idea what the emulated speaker jack is rated at. I would assume that it's a line out thing, but I,m just speculating. Any opinions are appreciated, even if your
yanking my chain. Have a great one Quote : "a good decision is based on knowlege, and not on numbers."...........Plato

[Chuck H]

Yup... I'm a yanker...

It IS important to run any tube amp into a proper "load". Whereas transistor amps operate fine into a high impedance, a tube amp needs a proper load for the "valves" to work correctly. This means (WRT tube amps) the load needs to 1:have a suitable impedance for the amplifier, and 2: be able to dissapate the wattage of that amp without failing. No DI box can do that. Hughes and Kettner makes a product called the "Red Box" that is a speaker driven and frequency compensated line out. You will still need to run the amp through a speakers cabinet. But the Red Box would allow you to steal an appropriate level signal that is already EQ'd for driving another amp. If you want to be able to use the smaller amp as a preamp type of arrangement, without a speaker, you will still need to provide a suitable load of some kind. A purely resistive load will sound a bit different than a speaker because speakers have a dynamic impedance which is different at different frequencies. The difference is almost insignificant though since there is more difference caused by the volume change as far as the human ear is concearned. In other words, you could just run a high wattage resistor in place of the speaker on the smaller amp. Typical practice is to use a higher ohm value than the actual intended speaker load. The reason, as far as I can tell, is that actual speakers are only at the rated ohmage in a fairly narrow band of their response curves and much higher at all other frequencies. For example, the "Ultimate Attenuator" uses a 30ohm resistive load for all amps regardless of the impedance rating. It then takes a small signal from this load and re-amplifies it with transistors. People love these attenuators and say they sound very natural. I've used them and I thought the results were very good. Food for thought on how to approach your method.

[tonequester]

"Yankers", Uh,...I mean tube to s.s. amp connection ideas.

[QUOTE=Chuck H;264653]Yup... I'm a yanker...

It IS important to run any tube amp into a proper "load". Whereas transistor amps operate fine into a high impedance, a tube amp needs a proper load for the "valves" to work correctly. This means (WRT tube amps) the load needs to 1:have a suitable impedance for the amplifier, and 2: be able to dissapate the wattage of that amp without failing. No DI box can do that. Hughes and Kettner makes a product called the "Red Box" that is a speaker driven and frequency compensated line out. You will still need to run the amp through a speakers cabinet. But the Red Box would allow you to steal an appropriate level signal that is already EQ'd for driving another amp. If you want to be able to use the smaller amp as a preamp type of arrangement, without a speaker, you will still need to provide a suitable load of some kind. A purely resistive load will sound a bit different than a speaker because speakers have a dynamic impedance which is different at different frequencies. The difference is almost insignificant though since there is more difference caused by the volume change as far as the human ear is concearned. In other words, you could just run a high wattage resistor in place of the speaker on the smaller amp. Typical practice is to use a higher ohm value than the actual intended speaker load. The reason, as far as I can tell, is that actual speakers are only at the rated ohmage in a fairly narrow band of their response curves and much higher at all other frequencies. For example, the "Ultimate Attenuator" uses a 30ohm resistive load for all amps regardless of the impedance rating. It then takes a small signal from this load and re-amplifies it with transistors. People love these attenuators and say they sound very natural. I've used them and I thought the results were very good. Food for thought on how to approach your method.[/QUOTE/]

tonequester here.

For a Yanker, you,ve got a pretty good head on your shoulders. Head, not face ! Thanks for the info and I suspected as much on the impedance question.
I'm still concerned about the output V. and I. of the tube amps being a "fry" hazard to the s.s. amp. Does the Ultimate Attenuator, attenuate the voltage and current as well ?
I'll have to call the company which makes the TDA 2003 I.C., I guess, to find out how much V. & I. it can take if the attenuator is only an impedance matching device. However, if I'm understanding you, perhaps one could use the Red Box with a 30 Ohm(say 5W.) resistor as a load. With load in place, could I use the Red Box give me an appropriate and safe line out signal level to run into an external speaker cabinet, driven by the s.s. amp ? Perhaps I'm not only missing the boat, I've fallen into waters too deep !
Thanks for the "Yankers" point of view in any case. If you have any further comments, my leg is ripe for pulling.

Quote : "Discontent is the first necessity of progress...............Thomas Edison. All good things to you and yours ! tonequester.

[Chuck H]

You really don't need to worry about current. The impedance of any input is going to be so high as to make the current there insignificant almost regardless of the source. You still need a load for tube amp outputs, ideally, but guys have run amp outputs into other amps inputs before without damage to the input amp. The damage happens to the output amp because it doesn't have a proper load. The voltage consideration is valid. Preamps are typically voltage amplifiers. Not power amplifiers. They process and boost the signal voltage to accomodate the power amplifier. An amps input should be able to handle up to about one volt with good results. A typical guitar being capable of roughly half that on peaks. If you get much higher than a volt you can ovedrive the input relative to it's bias. This is fine for later stages when you want to generate distortion. But it doesn't work well to overdrive the input too much. A "line" out is descriptive in it's name. It should provide something up to, or close to a "line level" signal voltage. Line level is 0dB. Which is just under one volt. there is enough leeway in any design that close to actual 0dB is close enough. If you look at this chart below (provided by Enzo to all here) you'll see that the output voltage of almost any power amp is too high without some kind of voltage divider. That's what the Red Box and similar devices are for. Such devices are actually very simple to make. But the Red Box does have the distinction of being EQ compensated and well regarded. But, to make a simple voltage divider for a line out you would just need two resistors and a jack. We can pick an almost arbitrary value for the series resistor. It only needs to be high in relation to the actual load and low in relation to the input it will feed. If we consider a typical output impdance of 8ohms and a typical input impdance of 1M, it's not hard to meet that criteria. So, let's just use a 4.7k series resistor, one end is attached to the loads + lead and the other to a female jack + lug The female jacks - lug is attached to the loads - lead. If we have an 8ohm output at 20W then the voltage at the end of the resistor is about 13VAC. So we need to make our divider a 13:1 ratio. For a 4.7k series we'll need a dropper value of 360ohms. A 500k pot is close enough and gives some additional range if needed. The dropping resistor for the divider has one end attached to the junction of the loads + lead and the series resistor and the other to the - junction. The 4.7k series resistor protects the load from an impedance mismatch. This is a very simple circuit used on many amps. But it's not EQ compensated. So what, put an EQ in line between the line out and the host amp for greater versitility.

I explained the circuit so that you could figure the values for the divider based on your particular amp.

[tonequester]

You really don't need to worry about current. The impedance of any input is going to be so high as to make the current there insignificant almost regardless of the source. You still need a load for tube amp outputs, ideally, but guys have run amp outputs into other amps inputs before without damage to the input amp. The damage happens to the output amp because it doesn't have a proper load. The voltage consideration is valid. Preamps are typically voltage amplifiers. Not power amplifiers. They process and boost the signal voltage to accomodate the power amplifier. An amps input should be able to handle up to about one volt with good results. A typical guitar being capable of roughly half that on peaks. If you get much higher than a volt you can ovedrive the input relative to it's bias. This is fine for later stages when you want to generate distortion. But it doesn't work well to overdrive the input too much. A "line" out is descriptive in it's name. It should provide something up to, or close to a "line level" signal voltage. Line level is 0dB. Which is just under one volt. there is enough leeway in any design that close to actual 0dB is close enough. If you look at this chart below (provided by Enzo to all here) you'll see that the output voltage of almost any power amp is too high without some kind of voltage divider. That's what the Red Box and similar devices are for. Such devices are actually very simple to make. But the Red Box does have the distinction of being EQ compensated and well regarded. But, to make a simple voltage divider for a line out you would just need two resistors and a jack. We can pick an almost arbitrary value for the series resistor. It only needs to be high in relation to the actual load and low in relation to the input it will feed. If we consider a typical output impdance of 8ohms and a typical input impdance of 1M, it's not hard to meet that criteria. So, let's just use a 4.7k series resistor, one end is attached to the loads + lead and the other to a female jack + lug The female jacks - lug is attached to the loads - lead. If we have an 8ohm output at 20W then the voltage at the end of the resistor is about 13VAC. So we need to make our divider a 13:1 ratio. For a 4.7k series we'll need a dropper value of 360ohms. A 500k pot is close enough and gives some additional range if needed. The dropping resistor for the divider has one end attached to the junction of the loads + lead and the series resistor and the other to the - junction. The 4.7k series resistor protects the load from an impedance mismatch. This is a very simple circuit used on many amps. But it's not EQ compensated. So what, put an EQ in line between the line out and the host amp for greater versitility.

I explained the circuit so that you could figure the values for the divider based on your particular amp.

tonequester here.

Hey Chuck ! There wasn't a single "Yank" on this one ! Your explanation was great. I was actually able to understand it in it's entirety. It all seemed to come together for me
and made perfect sense. The chart from Enzo (many thanks to Enzo), are now saved so that I can transfer them to a large, protective sleeved motebook that I,ve started for the most useful
info that I can glean from the forum, and from the "way cool" folks that I've met here who have been so good as to try to help me out, 'midst my deficiences. You, Enzo, Steve Conner,52 Bill,Austin,loudthud,big---teee, and now Jag. I know that I've missed a dozen more. All of you folks have my first forum experience a first class education at my level, and have made it a
fun experience as well !

Quote : "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex,..... it takes a touch of genius, and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." Albert Einstein.

You all have a great day. tonequester.

[Sweetfinger]

A long time ago I also felt that I needed to explore the subtleties of metal picks. I tried stainless steel, copper, and various sheet metals and coins. Basically, I didn't like the feel of them and didn't care for the tone, especially the "chirp" on the beginning of the notes. Also, I discovered that they really chew the heck outta your strings and finish. The copper ones turned my fingers green.
I would take whatever tonal secrets you get from Billy Gibbons with a grain of salt. I think he enjoys saying stuff just for the sake of having said it. IIRC he once said he uses strings made from melted down Cadillac bumpers. Basically the Rev is sort of the Salvador Dali of classic rock.

[Sweetfinger]

A long time ago I also felt that I needed to explore the subtleties of metal picks. I tried stainless steel, copper, and various sheet metals and coins. Basically, I didn't like the feel of them and didn't care for the tone, especially the "chirp" on the beginning of the notes. Also, I discovered that they really chew the heck outta your strings and finish. The copper ones turned my fingers green.
I would take whatever tonal secrets you get from Billy Gibbons with a grain of salt. I think he enjoys saying stuff just for the sake of having said it. IIRC he once said he uses strings made from melted down Cadillac bumpers. Basically the Rev is sort of the Salvador Dali of classic rock.

[tonequester]

tonequester here.


I have to agree with you on the "Rev's" secrets. Some would say Texas Attitude, but I don't think it has anything to do with Texas. As for the Naval Brass pick, I've found that it's great for some things, and sucks for others. Evidently the hardness of it is near perfect though. I play Blues/jazz d'Addarios with a first string guage of .011" and haven't broken one yet. Also, the pick doesn't seem to get cut up or show any wear. I never take these kind of things too serious though. I just like staying "unbored" ! Plastic, wood, or Kryptonite, we just gotta keep pickin". tonequester.