Will copper shielding fix a ground buzz?

[bjfly17]

If I read the photos correctly this wiring method will not work without noise.
I only see push back wire going to and from the 3 way switch, no shielded cable.
You can not run un-shielded wire from the control cavity, across the pickup hole routs to the switch unshielded, and back.

Dang, this is an unforeseen setback. I've never had a vintage/Fender style wiring so I just assumed single conductor cloth push back would be good for my purposes.

Two people already have issues with this. Can others confirm that this type of wire running from switch to cavity (through humbucker holes) can indeed produce a buzz? Specifically, one that has the grounding characteristics to the touch that were previously described?

Great insight guys, I'm feeling wiser/completely foolish.

[Chuck H]

Well it MAY help to shield the body cavities. This should be equal to using shielded pickup leads through the routes (provided you also shield the routes, a bit harder). In the end though I contend that the two hundred feet of unshielded copper wire poking up out of the guitar is going to be a lot more problematic than one foot of lead going to the switch. But indeed I think shielding the guitar AND shielded leads could help. Understand that EMF induced in the pickup coils that isn't hum-bucked is seen by the guitar as signal and can't be grounded away without grounding the guitar signal.

[big_teee]

On a regular les paul with 2 vol. and 2 tone.
Run one shielded lead from the jack all the way to the switch.
Then a shielded lead back for each vol. and pickup.
Yours will be a bit different, but you still need to follow shielded cable guide lines.
This gives you an idea how the leads are kept shielded.
http://ashbass.com/Gibson/WiringLibr...ringModern.jpg
The shielded 4 wire cable from the pickups does little, if you don't keep the signal shielded all the way to the amp.

[bjfly17]

So it could potentially be corrected by desoldering the push back wire used for the long run from switch to cavity and replacing with the braided, shielded wire? What of the short wiring runs connecting ground-to-ground and lug to lug in the cavity? Are they acceptable with the cloth push back wire? Furthermore, assuming the shielded, single conductor wire from the switch would be a good investment for these runs, what of the PVC coated 4 conductor wire from the pickups? I've never had a buzz problem using it prior to this mod. And never seen a metal shielded 4-conductor wire... (not that I've looked)

[big_teee]

So Consider this.
From the jack shielded to the Master Volume.
Then shielded from the MV to the Switch.
Then use another from the switch to each Tone Control.
The Seymour Duncan 4 wire pickups, have a 4 wire cable with shield.
The pickups are fine, if you ground the shield wire in each pickup cable, to the back of the Pots.
The Push back wire will be fine within the Control cavity.
Ground and tie the 3 or 4 pot backs together.
I would only hookup the split taps, after you have it all wired and quiet in humbucker mode.
GL,
T

[Tom Phillips]

So it could potentially be corrected by desoldering the push back wire used for the long run from switch to cavity and replacing with the braided, shielded wire? What of the short wiring runs connecting ground-to-ground and lug to lug in the cavity? ...

The wiring runs connecting ground-to-ground in the cavity do not need to be shielded so don't worry about those. They are grounded wires so there is no point, in this application, in putting a grounded shield around them. The same applies to longer ground wires such as the one connected to the bridge

[soundguruman]

There is no end to the amusement...

Because no matter what you do, single coil PU WILL buzz and hum.

And there seems to be unlimited number of people who think there is a (magic) way to stop the noise.
There is not.

So, if you are serious about getting the HUM out of a guitar,

Buy a humbucking pick up.
You don't need to pull your hair out anymore.

AND there are a number of Humbucking pickups that are engineered so to produce a very similar sound to single coil.
AND, they fit right into your guitar, without modifications.

AND as much as people "want" to believe that there is a way to stop single coil from buzzing...
you are dreaming the impossible dream.
It don't exist.

[Chuck H]

Hey SGM. Are you suggesting that shielding doesn't matter or that single coils pick up EMF!?! We know why humbuckers were made. But if you think shielding doesn't matter try plugging your guitar into your amp with a speaker cable some time. Stop being a goofball.

[bjfly17]

There is no end to the amusement...

Because no matter what you do, single coil PU WILL buzz and hum.

And there seems to be unlimited number of people who think there is a (magic) way to stop the noise.
There is not.

So, if you are serious about getting the HUM out of a guitar,

Buy a humbucking pick up.
You don't need to pull your hair out anymore.

AND there are a number of Humbucking pickups that are engineered so to produce a very similar sound to single coil.
AND, they fit right into your guitar, without modifications.

AND as much as people "want" to believe that there is a way to stop single coil from buzzing...
you are dreaming the impossible dream.
It don't exist.

I reiterate again, I am using humbuckers. Not single coil pickups. Thanks for the input, but I'm trying to get constructive responses from people who have actually read the details of my post.



Everyone else,
I am thinking that this obvious fix of using shielded wire on the longer runs will be what I end up trying. Glad I learned this and I appreciate all the help. If you have any other suggestions, please let me know. I will keep you updated.

[big_teee]

I am thinking that this obvious fix of using shielded wire on the longer runs will be what I end up trying. Glad I learned this and I appreciate all the help. If you have any other suggestions, please let me know. I will keep you updated.

Hang in there, you are well on your way.
Here are some things I do when I have a noisy guitar that is not easily fixed.
You can Isolate parts of the guitar.
Example of tests:
You can wire either pickup straight to the jack, and control the volume temporarily with the amp volume.
Or in your case wire from jack to the Vol, to the switch and then to one pickup bypassing the tone and split switch.
Doing different things and building and isolating as you go.
Then maybe wiring it up without the split mode.
These are things We do to isolate components.
GL,
T

[bjfly17]

Hang in there, you are well on your way.
Here are some things I do when I have a noisy guitar that is not easily fixed.
You can Isolate parts of the guitar.
Example of tests:
You can wire either pickup straight to the jack, and control the volume temporarily with the amp volume.
Or in your case wire from jack to the Vol, to the switch and then to one pickup bypassing the tone and split switch.
Doing different things and building and isolating as you go.
Then maybe wiring it up without the split mode.
These are things We do to isolate components.
GL,
T

Fingers crossed that I don't have to start troubleshooting in that manner.

Would it be worth it to drop $30 on conductive shielding paint? I don't know that I really want to buy it, but if it would provide noticeable clarity, I may consider it. I want to do it the best way possible so I don't have to revisit it in the future.

[big_teee]

Fingers crossed that I don't have to start troubleshooting in that manner.

Would it be worth it to drop $30 on conductive shielding paint? I don't know that I really want to buy it, but if it would provide noticeable clarity, I may consider it. I want to do it the best way possible so I don't have to revisit it in the future.

IMO if you work on guitars a lot, I like the paint.
It is easy to do, dries fast and it something I keep on the guitar bench.
Like you say, I just wish it was cheaper.
I thought about trying to make my own with powdered graphite, and some form of wetting agent.
I make guitar pickups, and I have several test guitars.
I have a SG clone I use a lot testing Humbuckers, and a while back it got terribly noisy.
Ripped out all the wiring and reused only the switch, and jack.
Painted all the cavities with the shielding paint, installed new Pots, and rewired it all.
It is now my quietest Guitar, so most of them can be improved.
T

[ToneShapers]

Shielding is effective against EMI/RFI, and there are many sources of both. The idea that it's going to kill your tone is nonsense. While it's impractical to play your guitar inside a Faraday cage, having a small Faraday cage inside your guitar that surrounds the electronics to the greatest degree that can be accomplished reasonably is fine (we would say desirable). We would recommend against shielding Strat single-coils (inside the covers, or a strip of foil surrounding the coil), as there's no question this will affect tone. But the OP isn't using single-coils anyway.

The Faraday cage - consisting of a box (the shielded control cavity) and a lid (the shielded pickguard) will be more effective if it is more complete. There can be holes in a Faraday cage, but so long as the largest of these are somewhat smaller than the wavelengths of the signals being contained or rejected, the barrier is effective (that's why it's okay to have perforations in the shield that lines the door of your microwave oven). In a Strat, of course, there are big holes in the cage where the pickups poke through the pickguard, so you're not going to have 100% effectiveness. But every little bit helps.

Your body will happily provide shielding as well - so long as it's grounded - which is why most guitar makers ground the strings, and thereby the human. Experiencing a reduction in hum while you are grounded through the guitar is normal, unless the S/N ratio is already high. That is, if there is already relatively little noise in the circuit, then the shielding your body provides improves the situation relatively little. This is why EMG always recommended that techs remove the string ground: Their pickups were so quiet inherently that they felt the human-shielding thing was of no benefit, so why connect the human to ground where (potentially, but very atypically) they were exposed to a shock hazard?

Shield the guitar - improve the S/N ratio - and the hum-reduction that your body provides will be diminished.

All manufacturers of high-end audio gear shield their devices. So did Leo Fender and Seth Lover. Leo put a cover on the Tele neck pickup and connected it to ground. The "connected it to ground" part is your clue that part of its function was shielding. Why did they leave the bridge pickup open? Because it lived in its own little Faraday cage: The bridge - connected to ground via the pickup's baseplate - along with its snap-on metal cover. Imagine Leo thinking "What the hell do you mean you're going to remove the cover? You'll screw up the shielding!"

Gibson's humbucker was fully shielded, right down to the coaxial wire.

I agree with the guy who has everyone pissed off: If you want single coils, you're going to have some hum. I live with it, Jimi lived with it, Robben Ford lives with it. But I certainly get that it would be nice not to have it. But EMI/RFI? Shield, baby, shield!

We use paint too (as opposed to foil) - Super Shield from M.G. Chemicals. Nickel-flake, good coverage on vertical surfaces, great stuff. Aerosol or brush-on. But nasty, you'll want good ventilation.

TS

[David Schwab]

I could take a strat, and put all the tape, paint, foil, shielding inside it.

I could take a strat and solder a cap across the output jack...

And there is NO WAY any of you could tell which one is which. (except looking inside it)
There is no difference in the sound, or the noise, between the two.

You have been duped.

Noise in = Noise out

You wanted a single coil PU because the high frequencies sounded better...
Then you put the foil inside, and killed the high frequencies....

Oh, that makes sense.

Look at me! I have single coil pickups, with no high frequencies! Look mom, no buzz!
(except the buzz is still there, minus the high frequencies)

Foil will not kill the high frequencies unless you put a closed loop around the pickup.

PLUS HE'S USING HUMBUCKERS!! You constantly post nonsense here... what's wrong with you anyway?

To the OP, I had this happen once, and running a second ground wire from the pots to the jack fixed it, but don't ask me why.

[soundguruman]

Foil will not kill the high frequencies unless you put a closed loop around the pickup.

PLUS HE'S USING HUMBUCKERS!! You constantly post nonsense here... what's wrong with you anyway?

To the OP, I had this happen once, and running a second ground wire from the pots to the jack fixed it, but don't ask me why.

Nope there is no nonsense.
It's the reality.
No matter how much foil, paint, copper it will still buzz.

What's wrong with me?
I'm a little tired of the fantasy created by foil, paint, copper shielding.

I'm so tired of it, it's about time to spill the beans.

Put all the "shielding" in there you like.

I don't need to subscribe to the fantasy.
I don't need to pretend that all this stuff is going to DE-buzz a noisy pickup.

I don't need to be popular with you, or to acquiesce to your attacks.

Come up with a better system that really works, and I will say something good about it.
Until then, I remain unimpressed.