Guitar setup tips

[tedmich]

scalloped for bends? I have never heard that, you can't even push down without going sharp, and the biggest proponent (YMalmsteen) uses them just for sweep pick arpeggio speed and has never bent a string as far as I've heard...

As to odd frets there are many including True Temper (shown above) and also Jetfrets

and closer to scalloping without the heavy wood removal Todd Keehn's huge 0.15625" SS bar frets and Allparts #0877 super jumbo fret wire (0.170" x 0.102")

[Rick Turner]

Try scalloped frets. It is easier to bend with them.

And as for going sharp: Robben Ford once had me refret his '58 Strat with the biggest frets I could find at the time because he felt that he was clamping down on the strings too hard with his left hand. He thought that if he had super big frets, he'd back off on his finger pressure because he'd hear the notes going sharp. It was a kind of bio-feedback mechanism for him to unlearn bad fretting habits.

I'm telling you, you have to go with what your customers want, especially if they are smart and articulate. This isn't about what you or I like at all; it's about making tools for musicians and/or improving musicians' tools to their needs. Take yourself out of it, and learn to do what the players want and need. That is if you want to make a living at this stuff. I do.

[Slobrain]

I like the super jumbo frets because it gives me more string control all around without the scalloping. My finger tips are not dragging on the fretboard and it makes my touch on guitar lighter and faster. string bending easier too.

Hey Rick, thank you for excellent advice. I'm always glad to keep learning from folks willing to share their knowledge. I haven't refretted a bound fingerboard yet but I feel I'm up to the challenge if I ever decide to give it a shot. Its in knowledge, prep and patience...

I think Steve isn't sure if he can replace the frets in his PRS SE without issues of intonation but I have replaced vintage frets in some strat necks with larger frets and they seem to play better and actually gives the neck a meatier sound too with no intonation problems as long as they are crowned right.

Cheers

[Rick Turner]

Intonation problems attributed to fret size are player problems, not fret size problems. Some players like small frets...Lee Sklar, arguably one of the most successful "for hire" electric bassists of all times, likes mandolin fret wire on his instruments. Some like huge wire. It's a matter of personal taste and touch. The story of my doing the refret on Bernie Leadon's D-45? He asked me to do it not because it technically really needed it...sure the frets had been dressed a couple of times, but one thinks twice about doing anything to a $125,000.00 guitar. He had me do it because he "felt too much wood" under his fingertips, and he avoided that guitar in favor of a vintage herringbone D-28 on which the frets were about .015" taller. So I regulated my coffee intake that day and did the job.

[Steve A.]

I just hate bound fretboards, you do what you have to to accommodate that (poor in my opinion) design.

Do what my friend Felix does- extend the fret channel right through the binding. He is blind but he has done at least 100 refret jobs- mainly on his own guitars, sanding down the fretboard for a wider radius and doing it all by touch. His girlfriend does help with hammering the frets in but he does the rest. His guitars have very low action- he doesn't care much for any guitar that he hasn't refretted himself. (His guitar playing is fucking incredible- think Eric Johnson but with a better grasp of blues...)

Steve

P.S. He might do some bound necks the right way- I was thinking of an Agile LP that he refretted...

[Rick Turner]

Gawd, don't saw fret slots through binding! Especially on someone else's guitar. That's the single worst looking thing you can do. Next worst is the dark ages advice to take the binding off to refret and then glue it back on.

We aren't in the stone age anymore, folks. The right ways to do these tasks are easy to find. Read any of Dan Erlewine's Stew Mac articles, read Frank Ford's FRETS.COM Acoustic guitar instrument care, repair for players, luthiers, read Paul Hostetter's advice, read the Mandolin Cafe blog lutherie stuff (best on the internet for fretted instrument advice). Don't pay attention to anyone who doesn't do this stuff for a living or who hasn't been doing it for at least eight to ten years. The best advice comes from folks who have done pro repair work for a long time in busy retail environments, and their experience is available to you if you do a modicum of homework.

And "luthiers" right out of lutherie school don't know squat, either.

And "luthiers" who specialize in aesthetic work...carving, inlays, etc., are not to be trusted for practical work advice...

[Rick Turner]

The best advice I can give on repair work and restoration is to ask yourself this: "Would it pass inspection by George Gruhn, Stan Jay, Stan Werbin, Fred Oster, Richard Johnston, Dan Erlewine, Buzzy Levine, Walter Carter, or Jim Baggett?" And if you don't know who those guys are, you don't know the world of vintage guitars, and maybe you shouldn't work on them before working your way up through instruments worth less than a grand.

One of the things they do at Roberto Venn is to repeatedly refret guitar necks. Yes, do a refret whether it needs it or not, and then do it again. And again. And again. It gets harder each time you do it because you're wearing out the fret slots. So learn to carefully restore the slots themselves...you're going to need to know that anyway. And even that doesn't necessarily teach you all the weird things you'll run into with bowed necks, back-bowed necks, "S" bends in necks, etc.

[Joe L]

Mitch! Good to see you old man.

My suggestion to the OP is to pickup a few cheap necks from Guitarfetish to practice on.

[Rick Turner]

Or junkers at the flea market or garage sales.

[tedmich]

As a hired pro, of course you have to do what the customer wants, but for me bound fret boards are wasted effort and material like bound bodies. Its an extension of the whole Gibson LP vs Strat mentality, Gibson wanted the player to conform to the shape they saw as valid for the guitar while Leo made the Strat to fit the player, one of the best ergometric designs ever, as well as being cheap and easy to mass produce (2fer!). Some of the best guitarists don't think too deeply about what they do, it is all about the feel, and I think the Strat is a more direct route to those feeling most of the time because of its ergonomics. IMHO.

Stainless steel definitely bends like crazy, there is no soft metal "grab"

[Rick Turner]

And there are many of us who think that Clapton did his best work and got his best sounds on a Les Paul and an SG! Bluesbreakers and Cream era stuff beats most of his solo career for tone, touch, and passion.

And...there are a lot of guitarists who don't seem to like the sound of stainless steel frets. I hate to install them. The Jescar "Gold" frets seem to be the best of both worlds. As near as we can figure, they're an alloy of iron and copper and something or other else. They may not be as hard as SS, but they are very tough...and that is a different property than just hardness. They last really well, and they look great, too.

Don't forget that Leo Fender's approach to refretting a Strat or Tele neck was to toss the neck into the ashcan and put a new neck on the guitar. Leo did not believe in refrets...at all. The necks were disposable. True story... In the 1950s and early '60s, nobody gave a shit about vintage guitars. When I was playing in a psychedelic rock band, a '58 LP or Strat was the equivalent of a 2006 LP or Strat. They were used guitars barely 8 years old.

Also, Gibson came out of building acoustic instruments...flat top and arched top. Les Paul started on archtops. There is/was a tradition in that factory culture that was very, very different from what Leo came up through. Leo was the Henry Ford of the electric guitar biz. He figured out how to get more guitar out of less materials and labor than anyone had done before him. Leo was a true industrial designer fixated on making it...whatever "it" was...for less money, and thus having a greater profit margin potential than "the competition".

I think we need to be able to step back and look at how these instruments evolved and also recognize that different aspects of the designs mean more or less to people other than ourselves. We also need to be able to separate design features that are truly lame from those which we merely don't personally like. And then we need to recognize that our own personal prejudices may work against us when faced with working on instruments that don't meet our own desires, but are clearly great for others. Like bound guitar necks... If you don't like them, fine, but don't impose that view upon others or do a shitty job refretting a bound neck just because you don't like them.

[tedmich]

all very valid points Rick, I would venture that the average ability of pro strat players exceeds that of the average pro LP players and that very few pro players go from a Strat to an LP (save for contractual reasons) while the latter switch is more common. Of course real artists can make most anything sound good, a point lost on all the guys who try to recreate EVHs Frankenstrat thinking it defines a great instrument rather than a great player. In general I think old guitars are just old, nothing too special and usually inferior to anything made today at 1/10th the price, but my feelings can't overcome the ridiculous prices to do the actual experiment. The technology of making guitars has only gotten better, woods may disappear but tech seldom does. People do feel deeply about old guitars though, no rational is needed to accept that!

[bbsailor]

And there are many of us who think that Clapton did his best work and got his best sounds on a Les Paul and an SG! Bluesbreakers and Cream era stuff beats most of his solo career for tone, touch, and passion.

And...there are a lot of guitarists who don't seem to like the sound of stainless steel frets. I hate to install them. The Jescar "Gold" frets seem to be the best of both worlds. As near as we can figure, they're an alloy of iron and copper and something or other else. They may not be as hard as SS, but they are very tough...and that is a different property than just hardness. They last really well, and they look great, too.

Don't forget that Leo Fender's approach to refretting a Strat or Tele neck was to toss the neck into the ashcan and put a new neck on the guitar. Leo did not believe in refrets...at all. The necks were disposable. True story... In the 1950s and early '60s, nobody gave a shit about vintage guitars. When I was playing in a psychedelic rock band, a '58 LP or Strat was the equivalent of a 2006 LP or Strat. They were used guitars barely 8 years old.

Also, Gibson came out of building acoustic instruments...flat top and arched top. Les Paul started on archtops. There is/was a tradition in that factory culture that was very, very different from what Leo came up through. Leo was the Henry Ford of the electric guitar biz. He figured out how to get more guitar out of less materials and labor than anyone had done before him. Leo was a true industrial designer fixated on making it...whatever "it" was...for less money, and thus having a greater profit margin potential than "the competition".

I think we need to be able to step back and look at how these instruments evolved and also recognize that different aspects of the designs mean more or less to people other than ourselves. We also need to be able to separate design features that are truly lame from those which we merely don't personally like. And then we need to recognize that our own personal prejudices may work against us when faced with working on instruments that don't meet our own desires, but are clearly great for others. Like bound guitar necks... If you don't like them, fine, but don't impose that view upon others or do a shitty job refretting a bound neck just because you don't like them.

Good points Rick. Here are a few more observations on the evolution of the modern guitar.

I was a mid-teenager the 1960s when Rock and Roll the Beatles reached their musical and social peak. Guitars became very popular but manufactures needed to sell low-priced instruments that were easy to play for the new guitar player fingers that were weak, soft and tender. They introduced light and extra light strings so the guitars would finger well in the guitar store. Early attemps to use light gauge strings were done by using a regular set of .012" or .013" high E-strings moving them over one string so that the E-string became the B-string, etc. and the new high E-string was made by using a banjo D-string, thus making a light gauge set of strings before light gauge strings were commercially available.

Les Paul type guitars had set necks and a 24.75" scale length which made the strings feel a little looser than the same gauge string on a Fender 25" scale length guitar. I would always use a little thicker gauge on the LP type guitars. Over the years I have discovered that neck-body joint type and fitting tolerances made an audible difference in the non-amplified sound of the string sustain. My interest in electronics got me interested in the technical aspects of guitar set-up which led me to the non-electronic aspects as well. My interests in guitars peaked when I met Steve Blozen, a wood stringed folk instrument maker in Newark, NJ who with the encouragement of his sons and the evolving popularity of the guitar started making electric guitars. Steve knew nothing about electronics, soldering, pot values or switching pickups. I spent about 5 years helping him and in return, learned about making fine wood instruments, wood tools, wood machines and finishing techniques. I most enjoyed doing the final setup on his guitars and getting the action just right.

One thing I learned is that the straightness of the neck, frets and final fret dressing plays a very important role in the critical playing feel of the guitar. Also, necks on the commercial guitars in the 1960s were becomming thinner to accomodate unskilled young hands. Steve's guitars continued to have the beefier necks that were typical of the pre Rock and Roll and Beatles era guitars. Also, Steve's custom guitars appealed to more skilled players who did not see thin necks and slinky strings as desireable.

As a result of my above experience, when I go into a Guitar Center retail store, I look on the used instrument wall to try to find a "sleeper". A sleeper guitar is one that shows little fret wear, poor setup, bad intonation, poorly implemented modifications and a variety of cosmetic issues. However, if the neck and fretwork are good, and the acoustic string sustain sound is good, the guitar has potential to be put into a playable condition at a low price. Once of my best sleeper guitars is a Schecter Research S1-Elite, dual cutaway solid body, arched top, set neck with a 25" scale and two humbucker style pickups. This guitar has a SD high impedance humbucker and an active EMG 85 humbucker pickup installed that represented a poor attempt to modify. Once I had the guitar home, I disassembled it, added another EMG 85 active pickup, added stacked 25K volume controls and stacked pots for mid-range frequency/boost-cut and active stacked pots for treble/bass boost-cut. All of this was added without drilling any new holes on the nicely finished arched top of the S-1 Elite. This guitar became one of my best playing and best sounding guitars.

For anyone looking for a sleeper guitar, learn to quickly evaluate the real value of a potentially good guitar in the quality of the neck, frets, neck to body joint and acoustic feel of the string sound. Look past things that make little difference in the final set up. A guitar with a wavy, twisted or humped neck, high or loose frets should be put back on the rack with no further evaluation effort. Most off-the rack guitars or new guitars have very high nuts that need to be adjusted/filed to make first fret bar chords easy to play and have the guitar reach its full potential.

Joseph Rogowski

[Steve A.]

Gawd, don't saw fret slots through binding! Especially on someone else's guitar. That's the single worst looking thing you can do.

A good portion of the members here are non-professional DIY-ers hoping to receive expert advice from by professionals like you. So you don't have to worry about me mangling up someone else's guitar.

The PRS SE in question would be considered to be "totaled" by an insurance adjuster since a professional refret would be more expensive than the used price of the guitar ($400) less the cost of installed upgrades ($150 worth of pickups.) I thought that leveling and recrowning the frets might have saved it but there just wasn't enough metal left in the frets hence my intention to refret it.

My only concern working on this guitar is how it plays and not how it looks. It is essentially worthless now and if I can bring it back to usefulness I'll be a happy camper.

Steve

P.S. Felix's Agile LP plays like a dream- the frets are more secure than if done the proper professional way since the tang goes across the full width of the neck.

[Steve A.]

I would venture that the average ability of pro strat players exceeds that of the average pro LP players and that very few pro players go from a Strat to an LP (save for contractual reasons) while the latter switch is more common.

I beg to differ. Although you see strats all over the place nowadays I prefer guitars with set necks and I don't like those damn tremolo springs vibrating when I play. When I bend a B or high E string I expect the pitch of a low E to remain perfectly constant. You can get that with a Tele or a Strat with a blocked tremolo but there is something about a LP style guitar when the neck and body communicate very well.

I remember in the 70's Rory Gallagher and Nils Lofgren played strats while practically everybody else was playing setneck LP's and SG's.

The technology of making guitars has only gotten better, woods may disappear but tech seldom does.

The Asian imports today play much better right out of the box than the Gibson and Fenders that I bought over the years. What I didn't realize back then was that there was hardly any setup done at the factory to keep the price down. They figured that a professional is going to have his guitar tech set it up anyway and the kids buying them won't know the difference.

Steve A.