Multi-Scale Guitars

[John_H]

I've been threatening to do this for a while. I did the layout for a neck last night.

[John_H]

I've been moving along with this in my spare time. I glued up a poplar body for it this week. This one's an experiment, so I don't want to use expensive material. The next one will be a little fancier. The scale lengths on this are 25.5/24.6... The layout is achieved by marking the fret positions of the two different scales, and connecting the marks. The biggest obstacle in building one of these is finding a bridge system that costs less than a Lamborghini. Inexpensive single string bridges for basses are easy to find, but I haven't been able to locate any for guitars. I'll be using a modified 6 saddle telecaster bridge on this one. I'm awaiting it's arrival from the other side of the earth, but I'll carry on. Stay tuned.

[tedmich]

Rondo sells their Agile Pendulum bridges pretty cheap
Agile Pendulum Bridge / Saddle - RondoMusic.com
sadly they look it
this price is easier to understand than Allparts of $36...each!

People also like using Wlkison/Graphtech saddles on custom flat base plates, hope the Tele bridge form the far east works out!

[John_H]

Thanks Ted, I hadn't seen those. They do look pretty cheap, but it's nice to see an alternative to the expensive systems. I've been looking at different types of bridges trying to come up with something I could do by cutting, and modifying one. I still may make my own segments, and use fender style string through saddles.

I've been designing this thing on the fly, and I'm not really sure what I'll do for electronics yet.

I'm on the fence on whether to do a six on one side, or a 3x3 snakehead.

I'm thinking a metallic blue with white plastics would look good with the maple neck.

[Mark Hammer]

That's not quite as fanned, and as discrepant a scale length from bottom to top, as some I've seen. So it may well be possible to accommodate the different scale lengths with a Telecaster-type assembly, or hard-tail Strat setup, and some longer adjustment screws and springs. Naturally, it would have to be strung-through type, rather than a through-body type.

Or am I sorely misjudging something about the stability of such an approach? For instance, what happens when the saddles are nut snuggled up in close proximity to each other.

[John_H]

That's not quite as fanned, and as discrepant a scale length from bottom to top, as some I've seen. So it may well be possible to accommodate the different scale lengths with a Telecaster-type assembly, or hard-tail Strat setup, and some longer adjustment screws and springs. Naturally, it would have to be strung-through type, rather than a through-body type.

Or am I sorely misjudging something about the stability of such an approach? For instance, what happens when the saddles are nut snuggled up in close proximity to each other.

I think I'll have plenty of room with a tele bridge like this. I only have to make up around 7/16" difference at the bridge. The bass side has room to move back, and there's room to expand forward also. I'll cut it down for my purpose. I don't anticipate stability being a problem, but we'll see.

[Mark Hammer]

That's sort of what I was thinking about. A lot of range in those adjustment screws, from all outward appearances.

[tedmich]

nice work! I can get my head around these, its the tru temper frets I can't imagine how to install...

I think CNC is required

[Jason Rodgers]

Right on, another multi-scale convert! This is all I build, and I think a lot of players are coming around to seeing this as an appropriate and functional evolution of the guitar, especially where extended ranges are concerned.

So, it looks like you put the perpendicular fret at the 9th? In the future, if you're only splaying your scales by an inch, putting the perpendicular at the 12th won't be much different in feel, and you'll have to deal with less of a difference at the bridge.

I'm one of those people who uses the Graph Tech Wilkinson saddles on a flat bridge plate. I get mine on amazon. This is a really easy DIY solution, and even if you don't get your post screw holes exactly equidistant, you can still pivot the saddles for correct string spacing. Making a bridge plate out of 3/16" aluminum sheet stock would be my suggestion.

As for pickups, don't worry about tilting them to match the bridge. You can do that, of course, but it requires custom base plates and covers. With the design you have, some of those dog-eared P-90s you thermoformed would look cool.

Oh, and a 3+3 headstock would look best, in my opinion.

Keep us updated!

[John_H]

Right on, another multi-scale convert! This is all I build, and I think a lot of players are coming around to seeing this as an appropriate and functional evolution of the guitar, especially where extended ranges are concerned.

So, it looks like you put the perpendicular fret at the 9th? In the future, if you're only splaying your scales by an inch, putting the perpendicular at the 12th won't be much different in feel, and you'll have to deal with less of a difference at the bridge.

Thanks for the reply Jason. I don't know if I'm a convert, but this is something definitely worth giving a shot. It's perpendicular at the 8th. I thought about squaring it further up, but it seemed to me that it might be difficult to play chords in the first couple of positions that way.

I'm one of those people who uses the Graph Tech Wilkinson saddles on a flat bridge plate. I get mine on amazon. This is a really easy DIY solution, and even if you don't get your post screw holes exactly equidistant, you can still pivot the saddles for correct string spacing. Making a bridge plate out of 3/16" aluminum sheet stock would be my suggestion.

As these become more popular, I'm sure that there will be more bridge options. I'm not afraid to fabricate, and I haven't ruled that out.

As for pickups, don't worry about tilting them to match the bridge. You can do that, of course, but it requires custom base plates and covers.

I found some F spaced humbucker stuff in my junk drawer. You can count on there being a custom base plate and cover.

With the design you have, some of those dog-eared P-90s you thermoformed would look cool. Oh, and a 3+3 headstock would look best, in my opinion.

Keep us updated!

I'll have to dig through the hardware I've got to determine what I'll use for tuners. I'm trying to keep the cost low on this experiment. So far, I'm not in deep at all. I'm doing this in my spare time. I'll probably work on it some today.

[Jason Rodgers]

I thought about squaring it further up, but it seemed to me that it might be difficult to play chords in the first couple of positions that way.

I think it takes quite a bit of splay (like more than 2 inches) before chords start feeling foreign in the lower positions. My first build was a 7-string with a 25 1/2" treble and 27" bass, perpendicular at the 9th. It was the 7th string that threw me off more than the frets! Something I did find, however, was a challenge with the upper frets, above the 12th. When you're used to looking straight down at the 15th or so, and being able to see straight across the fretboard from the side dots, I found that I was making mistakes on lead lines on the G, B, E strings because the bass side is tilted toward the bridge. Does that make sense? In other words, I looked down at the side dots, but the actual fret positions for those high strings were BEHIND those dots. I also don't use fretboard position markers, so that made it more of a challenge. Anyhoo, this is an issue that I've not seen discussed. Like you, people generally think the tilt of the frets will cause problems in the lower positions, but I'm finding the opposite. That's why I'm now splitting the difference at the 12th fret.

If you're thinking about making more than one of these beasts, I suggest building this adjustable fret saw jig. I got the idea here Multiscale Fret Slot Jig - Australian/New Zealand Luthiers Forum

[John_H]

I had a few things to consider when I did the layout for this, but the foremost was how much compensation I could get from a modified tele bridge. Secondly was to keep it close to perpendicular in the middle of the neck. There's no book on these. I'm sure that most who endeavor to make one either step up with their own design, or reverse engineer what others have done. There isn't that much to go on. It's a newer frontier in a craft where almost everything has already been done. The fact that no major makers are building these adds to the mystery. I believe that will change soon because the popularity of this is surely on the rise.

The fret slot jig looks like it would be helpful cutting fingerboards. I like the neo magnets holding the blade to the guide. That's clever. I build a lot of one piece necks though, and it wouldn't be applicable. I do have a couple of new ideas after looking at it though. Thanks!

[Jason Rodgers]

The fact that no major makers are building these adds to the mystery. I believe that will change soon because the popularity of this is surely on the rise.

Well, at NAMM this year, Ibanez introduced a Fanned Fret (yes, licensed through Novax) bass guitar. And then I guess it depends on who you consider "major," but Dingwall, out of Saskatchewan, Canada, has gotten bigger over the past decade or so, and his guitars are played by metal guys like Adam "Nolly" Getgood from Periphery. Strandberg, a Swedish outfit, has also been on the rise, and Tosin Abasi and Javier Reyes from Animals as Leaders play them. From Perth, Australia, Perry Ormsby has been championing the mult-scale. The vast majority of the players, though, tend to be metal folks, and even a bit on the "underground" side. More of your average guitarists are starting to see them out there, and it's only a matter of time before they go truly mainstream.

[John_H]

...If however you want near perfect intonation all over your >6 string guitar you need tru temper frets....

We're discussing multi scale guitars. Let's stay on topic please. I'm familiar with tru temper frets, and you've brought them up twice, but that's not what this is about.

I agree Ted. The benefits of different scale lengths would certainly be more apparent on an extended range guitar or bass. I decided to make my first effort a little less complicated, and more like a regular guitar.

Well, at NAMM this year, Ibanez introduced a Fanned Fret (yes, licensed through Novax) bass guitar.

Cool, I wasn't aware of that... There are builders doing multi's of course, but nobody by any means does a big number of these. Perry O only builds around 32 or so a year.

I laid a three saddle tele bridge that I've cut down for another one that I'm building up on the guitar to illustrate how it will work. There's plenty of room for compensation. I don't like the angled pickup.

[Jason Rodgers]

I laid a three saddle tele bridge that I've cut down for another one that I'm building up on the guitar to illustrate how it will work. There's plenty of room for compensation. I don't like the angled pickup.

Did you make a base plate for that humbucker? Yeah, for the design your using, with no asymmetry aside from the frets, straight pickups will look good. Are you going to put a neck pickup over that neck tongue?