Multi-Scale Guitars

[tedmich]

opinions?

[Steve A.]

opinions?

Whoever put the LSD in my coffee needs to cut that shit out or I might have to go Charlie Manson on him...

[John_H]

opinions?

Multi scale with tru temper frets. That's impressive.

Did you make a base plate for that humbucker? Yeah, for the design your using, with no asymmetry aside from the frets, straight pickups will look good. Are you going to put a neck pickup over that neck tongue?

No baseplate. I only laid it up there to see what it would look like. I'll use a strat pickup at the neck

[Jason Rodgers]

Certainly impressive, but the True Temperament system is outside the realm of reasonable construction for the small shop, hand builder (aside from simply buying their fretboards). And while this may be a high level of compensation for our imperfect temperament system, there are methods for intonating the nut that can get you closer to perfect than even the best ears could notice.

One of the things that longer bass scales in the multi-scale system can help with, though, is improved intonation by increasing tension while maintaining or decreasing string gauge: this helps decrease the presence of inharmonicities within a particular pitch at a particular tension with a particular string mass. The way I understand it, on a rather lay level, is that a thicker and stiffer string will not vibrate along its actual length, but at some percentage shorter, because it cannot flex all the way down to its actual terminus. This means that it's actually, in part, vibrating at a slightly different and conflicting pitch. Greater and greater compensation is needed to attempt to correct this, but will not affect a fretted guitar string equally along the fretboard, leading to frustration as it sounds out of tune in different areas. All strings suffer from this to some extent, but your instrument's design should strike a balance between the desired pitch, its string length, and resulting tension. The piano is an obvious example, with a 9-foot grand considered the best achievement of tone, giving the lowest strings the length they need for the desired pitches at tensions that won't collapse the soundboard. The violin family is another example (and the New Octet an extension), with several instruments with their respective scale lengths representing various registers, each at a tension that is reasonable to comfortably play and present an even tone and volume. The mutli-scale system assumes that one scale length for the guitar limits either end of its register, usually the lower end, and so should be adjusted to strike that balance between playability, tone, and intonation.

You know... or something like that... in case you were interested.

[John_H]

That's a good description Jason. You made excellent points. Finding the optimum string sizes will be interesting. I wish someone made a hybrid set something like a 10-52. The Ernies' are 9-46.

[riz]

I've been playing 10-52 sets for years--they're very available. "Light top heavy bottom".

[John_H]

I've been playing 10-52 sets for years--they're very available. "Light top heavy bottom".

I thought they were out there, but didn't see any online. Thanks.

[Jason Rodgers]

Finding the optimum string sizes will be interesting.

It's been a while since I've looked for custom string sets, but have you seen the newer D'Addario string calculator? String Tension Pro Just for fun, I entered a 7-string, 25.5" to 27" multi-scale, and an equal tension across all strings of 21lbs. The results give a custom set, each string within 2lbs of the desired tension, with .011", .015", .019", .028", .036", .049", .064".

But, yes, D'Addario sells all sorts of hybrid sets, even some intended for super-low, sludge-y tunings. A friend of mine built a sweet PRS-inspired guitar for a client who wanted to play in drop C (drop D, with the whole thing then tuned down a whole step) and had a hell of a time finding a set that would play in tune within the compensation range of the bridge. Can't remember what the set was called, but it worked and the client was happy.

[Jason Rodgers]

I think it takes quite a bit of splay (like more than 2 inches) ... Something I did find, however, was a challenge with the upper frets, above the 12th. When you're used to looking straight down at the 15th or so, and being able to see straight across the fretboard from the side dots, I found that I was making mistakes on lead lines on the G, B, E strings because the bass side is tilted toward the bridge. Does that make sense? In other words, I looked down at the side dots, but the actual fret positions for those high strings were BEHIND those dots. I also don't use fretboard position markers, so that made it more of a challenge. Anyhoo, this is an issue that I've not seen discussed. Like you, people generally think the tilt of the frets will cause problems in the lower positions, but I'm finding the opposite. That's why I'm now splitting the difference at the 12th fret.

Holy crap, other folks are noticing this issue, too. I just found this article on Ola Strandberg's site Fanned Fret Compensated Markers | Strandberg Guitarworks This is a cool and simple solution.

[Jason Rodgers]

If you don't mind the side-track: I finished a multi-scale guitar yesterday and just posted on the MIMF MIMF ? View topic - Jason's #3: Walnut over spalted maple 6-string.

[John_H]

Nice Jason! I like that. The bridge I was waiting for wasn't quite what I had in mind, so I'm getting something different. In the meantime, I've started another one. It'll be a 7 string. something like a 27/25.75. Are you familiar with, or is anyone familiar with fret find 2D http://www.ekips.org/tools/guitar/fretfind2d/ I'm going to print out the layout this time hopefully.

[Mark Hammer]

Not about multi-scale matters, but related to variation in string tension.

I was recently given a late 60's very faithful copy of a Mosrite guitar. Never having looked at one very closely before, I was struck by the Bigsby-type vibrato on it. The movable string-anchor bar does not employ a straight line of holes for the string ends to be secured in. Rather, several of the holes for string ends are offset, such that some of the string are at different angles from the bridge to vibrato. Here's as good a photo of one as I could find (though they normally use a roller bridge). The only thing I can surmise is that the intent was to distribute torque across the strings in a manner that anticipated differential string tension, when used with the roller bridge.

Unfortunately, the fellow who gave me the guitar couldn't locate the vibrato arm, so I can't say whether my hunch is borne out by the behaviour of the vibrato system, because I can't wiggle the strings yet. But I mention it here because although nobody has yet raised the matter of implementing vibrato systems with a multi-scale instrument, you have to wonder whether reasonable use of multi-scales would result in the sort of evenly distributed string tension that would provide "better" vibrato...assuming that such a mechanical system were actually feasible.

[Jason Rodgers]

Nice Jason! I like that. The bridge I was waiting for wasn't quite what I had in mind, so I'm getting something different. In the meantime, I've started another one. It'll be a 7 string. something like a 27/25.75. Are you familiar with, or is anyone familiar with fret find 2D http://www.ekips.org/tools/guitar/fretfind2d/ I'm going to print out the layout this time hopefully.

My first build was a 7-string with a 25.5" to 27" splay, and I'll use those scales again (though with the neutral fret at the 12, instead of the 7). I tune the 7th string to low A, and the 27" scale makes it feel and sound great.

Fretfind2D is the only way I do fret layout. There are some tricks to get what you want, though. For example, you can't simply enter a nut width. It's all based on string spacing, from first to last. So what I did was take a typical nut width, say 1-11/16" for a 6-string, and subtract the 1/8" string-to-edge "overhang" on both sides, for a 1-7/16" string width. Then you enter that 1/8" overhang in another box. You can also adjust the amount of taper on that overhang, if you like a little more space for vibrato or bending up high. For the bridge string width, I just use a 13/32" spacing. Fretfind does equal spacing, but I use a progressive string spacing ruler at the nut. Also, for multi-scale, there is a box for selecting your perpendicular fret. This number is represented as a fraction of the scale, so a perpendicular at the 12th would be .5 (click on the '?' for a table of these fractions).

To save your template, click "save to disk" on "PDF (multi-page)". NOTE: you have to add the .PDF file extension onto your file name. When printing, be sure to select "actual size" in the print dialogue box. Apparently, inkjets are pretty accurate for this work. Double-check the nut to 12th with a ruler, though. With my last round of template printing, I found some discrepancies, depending on the quality of print (fast draft vs. best quality), but that might just be my aging printer. As long as the scales are in scale with themselves, a small fraction of an inch off isn't the end of the world. When piecing together your three pages, use a long ruler on the center-line, and carefully align the adjoining pages and tape them together. Cut out the template, glue it to your fretboard with Elmer's school glue (or some light-tack glue), and cut right on the lines with your fret saw.

[Jason Rodgers]

Not about multi-scale matters, but related to variation in string tension.

I was recently given a late 60's very faithful copy of a Mosrite guitar. Never having looked at one very closely before, I was struck by the Bigsby-type vibrato on it. The movable string-anchor bar does not employ a straight line of holes for the string ends to be secured in. Rather, several of the holes for string ends are offset, such that some of the string are at different angles from the bridge to vibrato. Here's as good a photo of one as I could find (though they normally use a roller bridge). The only thing I can surmise is that the intent was to distribute torque across the strings in a manner that anticipated differential string tension, when used with the roller bridge.

Unfortunately, the fellow who gave me the guitar couldn't locate the vibrato arm, so I can't say whether my hunch is borne out by the behaviour of the vibrato system, because I can't wiggle the strings yet. But I mention it here because although nobody has yet raised the matter of implementing vibrato systems with a multi-scale instrument, you have to wonder whether reasonable use of multi-scales would result in the sort of evenly distributed string tension that would provide "better" vibrato...assuming that such a mechanical system were actually feasible.

I don't know about what they were trying to do on that bridge, but I know that Kahler is pretty much the only major component manufacturer who does multi-scale trems https://www.kahlerusa.com/multi-scale-tremolos-bridges. Ola Strandberg has recently adapted his headless bridge systems for a multi-scale trem Fanned Fret Tremolo Prototype | Strandberg Guitarworks. This solution is much more elegant than those MASSIVE Kahlers (heavier than a Floyd).

[John_H]

Thanks for the heads-up Jason, I followed your advice, and built an adjustable fret slotting jig. The neo magnets worked great for holding the saw blade to the guide. I used some big ones. 5/8 dia x 1/16 . It's difficult to remove the saw.