Earvana nut > 1st fret?

[Chuck H]

my own (vague) understanding of this is that the conventional calculations for nut position were slightly off since they did not account for the tiny bit of string next to the anchoring point that doesn't vibrate.

That's an interesting consideration. And I raised an eyebrow for a moment. Just a moment though, because it occurred to me immediately that the same anchoring must also happen to a fretted note or across a bridge saddle. So, IMHO as a person not versed in physics, that consideration seems moot and therefor misleading. I'll stick with the idea of keeping the intervals analogous to each other, and a properly placed and height adjusted nut as the better answer. I just can't overlook the seemingly solid logic in my capo example in post #52.

Also mentioned in post #52 was that there is no magic difference between the nut to first fret interval and the first fret to second fret interval. Maybe that's not true!..

Something that may be overlooked by some builders could be that if the face of the nut pocket is absolutely placed at the correctly calculated interval from the center of the first fret slot, it will always be wrong because frets are never perfectly pointy at their crown. If they were they would wear terribly. Sometimes frets are quite flat for a relatively broad width actually. How or if this is compensated for I can't say because I haven't researched it. But it seems that PRS has and actually taken measures. And that's not surprising considering their reputation. This might explain why some guitars (PRS not withstanding) seem to need nut compensation. Why this should be managed individually for each string, when every other interval on the fingerboard remains constant, still seems obtuse to me.

[rjb]

my own (vague) understanding of this is that the conventional calculations for nut position were slightly off since they did not account for the tiny bit of string next to the anchoring point that doesn't vibrate. Some guitars (as I understand) do have a bit of nut compensation (slightly closer placement of nut towards bridge) such as PRS.

I vaguely remember Bob Taylor stating in an interview that his early guitars had better intonation than competitors' because when he cut the nut slot, he forgot to account for the saw kerf- thereby placing the nut closer to the first fret than he intended.

Sort of Murphy's Law in reverse.

[Dave H]

I also wanted to note that differences in string tension should absolutely be greater at every fret beyond the first unless the nut is too high. Straight up, the further you push a string the more you increase tension.

Pushing the string down a distance x at the first fret increases string tension more than pushing the string down x at the 12th fret. Perhaps that effect dominates? As I said above it's not a problem for me. I must be used to open chords sounding out of tune.

[Chuck H]

Pushing the string down a distance x at the first fret increases string tension more than pushing the string down x at the 12th fret. Perhaps that effect dominates? As I said above it's not a problem for me. I must be used to open chords sounding out of tune.

Is that true if the nut is properly adjusted for height? Would that then mean that a note pressed down in front a fretted note presents greater tension than if the prior note weren't fretted? I dunno. Someone is going to need to splain that to me in blue collar. I just reasoned that the greater the distance displacement on a tensioned string would cause the greater tension increase. If the nut of a guitar was too high that would surely mean a disproportionate increase in tension to fret the interval in front of it. But I don't see how that applies if the nut is the same height (or nearly so) as if it were a zero fret.

[Dave H]

Is that true if the nut is properly adjusted for height? Would that then mean that a note pressed down in front a fretted note presents greater tension than if the prior note weren't fretted?

I guess so. It bends the string through a sharper angle. I used Pythagoras to calculate the increase in string length for a note pressed down the same distance to the fret at the 12th and first fret and the increase in string length (tension) was greater at the first fret. I'm only trying to figure out how it could work. I don't know for sure.

[dai h.]

related links:

http://music-electronics-forum.com/t1300/

http://music-electronics-forum.com/t28310/

(post #164)
http://music-electronics-forum.com/t29910-5/

(post #22)
http://music-electronics-forum.com/t17813/

http://music-electronics-forum.com/t37505/

Feiten system? - AMPAGE Archive

http://music-electronics-forum.com/t9005/

http://music-electronics-forum.com/t29288/

Buzz Feiten - Tuners - Smoke and Mirrors? - AMPAGE Archive

predaina custom basses - Using Peterson Strobe Tuners with the Buzz Feiten Tuning System

Opinions on Earvana nut system... - AMPAGE Archive

http://music-electronics-forum.com/t32643/

Tuning The Guitar

The Buzz Feiten Tuning System

also, (this seems correct--I don't remember where I read this though--some Japanese guitar mag?) when you fret a string, press right next to the fret and not in between frets (presumably because it's easier to press sharp if your finger is in the middle as opposed to right next to the fret where the string is more taut).

[TimmyP1955]

Sorry if this was mentioned and I missed it:

I believe that the Earvanna, like the Feiten, should have come with instructions on how to set the intonation and how to tune, as getting the instrument right requires that certain things be set wrongly by an exact amount (in cents or fractions thereof).

[Sea Chief]

Sorry if this was mentioned and I missed it:

I believe that the Earvanna, like the Feiten, should have come with instructions on how to set the intonation and how to tune, as getting the instrument right requires that certain things be set wrongly by an exact amount (in cents or fractions thereof).

I reckon you must be right. As it was used neck/ nut already on this was n/a, so I emailed Earvana.. no reply tho.

I think my measurements if not 100% accurate as none would be, are nevertheless so damn close as to be deemed VG even by an OCD intonation freak, as Im prone to be.

Tunog at the harmonic 19th fret is a good idea.. seems more logical to me than 12th, but there might be a reason saying 12th in fact is the best place to intonate, other than its convenient octave to immediatley go by.

[Chuck H]

Another advantage to intonating at the 19th fret might be that the fret to nut interval difference from nut compensating becomes less significant as you move up the neck. So the nut compensation would work to correct only the first five or seven intervals and the saddle compensation corrects the higher intervals. Making for a lower average "out of tune-ness" than you might have using only bridge compensation. This only works if you choose a "center" point above the nut to saddle scale. (I still disagree but I'm playing along )

[dai h.]

some intonation related videos by David Collins of Ann Arbor Guitars:

(Guitar Intonation Physics)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEjekEOMWmg

(Temperament for Fretted Instruments)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERF1Kk5kcR8

(Gibson and Martin Scale Lengths Explained)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yCLckbp8ps

[Steve A.]

Normally when a luthier refrets a guitar with taller frets it is his responsibility to set the nut height accordingly, usually by replacing the nut or shimming it up. With an Earvana nut it is probably best to deal with a luthier familiar with them.
As for setting the nut slot height what I find works best is to fret the string at the 3rd fret and then press down at the 1st fret, observing the clearance. For plain strings the clearance should be as small as possible- I do this visually watching the string and its shadow on the fret. The wound strings need more clearance to avoid string buzz.

Just my own 2 cents...

Steve Ahola