Making Flatwork

[Stan H]

I'd like to start making my own flatwork out of Forbon instead of buying them. What is the best way for a novice with limited tools to cut them out acurately? I'm sure that a razor knife wont "cut-it", haha. Is there a good way to make some sort of template and use a router?

Thanks,
Stan

[jason lollar]

I pointed this out in another thread but I guess no one saw it- these have been selling for $200
http://cgi.ebay.com/Basic-Pickup-Win...ayphotohosting
the guy wants 7 buy it now
it will tell you all about making flatwork
basically you just make some jigs and use a router and a drill press- you can make anything

[David Schwab]

Wow, Jason... someone snapped that book up! I would have if I saw the post in time. I bet they are going to sell it for more.

Getting to the flatwork. You can indeed make a router template.

There's a few ways to do it, and you can use a router table or a hand held router.

I haven't made flatwork this way yet (but I plan to), but I do make things like truss rod and control covers...it's the same principle.

Get something to make your pattern from. You can use something like 1/4 plywood. Shape it exactly like the flatwork. You can even use a commercial flat as a guide. Then get a larger piece of plywood to serve as a base.

Drill a couple of holes in the pattern, you can do these where the outside two magnets are, but make them smaller than the magnets.

Now either glue or otherwise attach the pattern to the base.

Now when you want to cut some flatwork, start by roughing out the shape on several pieces, so you don't have to remove too much material.

Screw these to the pattern, though the holes, with counter sunk flat head screws... you may need to have a top piece that is just to bury the screws into (i.e. the holes can be slightly larger). It can be made from wood also.

Then use a router with a ball bearing pattern bit. You want the bearing to be near the tip of the bit... you can get them two ways. The other way has the bearing near the collet. Set the depth so the bearing rides on the wooden pattern, while the bit cuts the flatwork.

You can also do this with a router table... you will just be working upside down. If you do that you have to come up with a way to keep the template base steady and level.

You can also make a jig to drill your holes in the flatwork.

When I started building guitars I read a lot of wood working books and magazines which gave a me a lot of good ideas to work with for jigs and fixtures.

[corduroyew]

I pointed this out in another thread but I guess no one saw it- these have been selling for $200
http://cgi.ebay.com/Basic-Pickup-Win...ayphotohosting
the guy wants 7 buy it now
it will tell you all about making flatwork
basically you just make some jigs and use a router and a drill press- you can make anything

I had seen it but not in time

I've been looking for that book for a while now. Any chance of a reprint?

And to the threadstarter, I have used the method David described and it works great once you have it all set up, however, I find myself attaching my flatwork to the jig and cutting around it with a very sharp chisel to be easier faster, and just as accurate if you are only shaping 2 or 3 at a time.

[Possum]

dangers....

I use Lollar's method (get the book) and use a routing table. Using a router to cut out flatwork is fairly dangerous. You must trim the flatwork to about 1/16 inch outside the edge of the template, if you don't, Forbon is real grabby with router bits and if it grabs too much material it will fling the whole thing violently outward. If you flinch and panic you could end up catching parts of your hand in the router bit and lose a good chunk of meat if not your whole finger. This is a learned skill and can be done but I dread it everytime I have to use this method, especially on a real tiny piece like a tele neck top which is really small. I never used a router before I got Lollar's book and had some pretty terrifying moments with that thing. Its kind of useless to just cut one piece so I stack the pieces up to 5 high which increases the risk of the router bit grabbing and flinging it. So yes it can be done but its not real safe either :-) Screwing it down and routing from the top to me would seem really slow. But learning to rout forbon flatwork is a supremely valuable skill because then you can make anything you want. But when you gotta make 100 of them its ridiculous to do it this way....

[Joe Gwinn]

I use Lollar's method (get the book) and use a routing table. Using a router to cut out flatwork is fairly dangerous. You must trim the flatwork to about 1/16 inch outside the edge of the template, if you don't, Forbon is real grabby with router bits and if it grabs too much material it will fling the whole thing violently outward. If you flinch and panic you could end up catching parts of your hand in the router bit and lose a good chunk of meat if not your whole finger. This is a learned skill and can be done but I dread it everytime I have to use this method, especially on a real tiny piece like a tele neck top which is really small. I never used a router before I got Lollar's book and had some pretty terrifying moments with that thing. Its kind of useless to just cut one piece so I stack the pieces up to 5 high which increases the risk of the router bit grabbing and flinging it. So yes it can be done but its not real safe either :-) Screwing it down and routing from the top to me would seem really slow. But learning to rout forbon flatwork is a supremely valuable skill because then you can make anything you want. But when you gotta make 100 of them its ridiculous to do it this way....

The router table is the way to go. The grabbing makes me wonder if your router spins fast enough, is powerful enough, and/or the blade is sharp enough. Forbon is no denser than say hard maple.

A shaper could be a better approach. A shaper is like a router in a router table. The advantage is that because one does not have to lift the motor, it can be larger and faster than in a router, so it will cut faster with far less danger of grabbing. That said, shapers are more than capable of trimming one's fingers off to an even length, so guards and templates are required.

[Spence]

Get a mini mill and make a cutter which will punch the holes out at the same time.

[Stan H]

Get a mini mill and make a cutter which will punch the holes out at the same time.

Hmmm, that sounds interesting. Any resources?

~Stan

[David Schwab]

I use Lollar's method (get the book) and use a routing table. Using a router to cut out flatwork is fairly dangerous. You must trim the flatwork to about 1/16 inch outside the edge of the template, if you don't, Forbon is real grabby with router bits and if it grabs too much material it will fling the whole thing violently outward...

I haven't cut forbon this way, but I don't usually have a problem with router bits grabbing either. It is important to use a large base for the template, and to secure that to your work bench, and move the router in the direction of the cut.

They are harder to find, but spiral bits are the way to go, and you can get downward and upward bits... which will either hold the work down to the pattern if using an overhead router, or down to the table for a table mounted router.

A router table is the best way to go, as long as you have a jig that will keep your fingers away from the bit.

The grabbing sounds like too slow a router speed, or a dull bit. (just like Joe said).

You can use a chisel or a sharp knife, but that don't work well for other materials.

Another idea is to use the pattern meathod and then get a RoboSander.

These would be ideal for Forbon, but you have to adjust your pattern slightly, because they never seem to do exact sizes. (or make a new bearing wheel)

I've actually been using one of these freehand when shaping one off pickups, like my recent stacked Tele experiment (made from PC board). That was all scored with a razor blade too...

The beauty of using a pattern is for repeatability.

[Possum]

Forbon

well maybe my router bit isn't as sharp as it used to be but I had that problem from the beginning. No the router isn't too slow, its a standard large size router, high speed with table. Forbon isn't like wood, its a compressed paper product and has some kind of resin in it as well. My bit isn't real fat, maybe thats a problem? But for sure if I got 1/4 inch of forbon sticking out the edge of the template the bit will grab it and throw the piece because the bit has sunk in too much and is grabbing too much material. You need to have a real firm grip on the piece your feeding, a light grip and it will for sure fling that thing into the wall. If you've never used a router before you need to be real careful or your guitar playing days could be ended real fast.

What is ideal is a laser cutter.......

[Spence]

Cutting Flatwork For Dummies

Cutting out flatwork doesn't have to be a nightmare.
I have to agree with Possum that forbon does present a severe hazard when cutting with a router. So this is what I use:


It's a hand nibbler used in sheet metal cutting. It doesn't curl or distort the material as it cuts and does beautiful straight edges. With a little practise you can even cut curves. Holes for magnets can easily be drilled with a drill press after acurately marking the holes with an automatic centre punch. The flatwork can then be filed or sanded.
This method works, is pretty quick and beats the crap out of getting someone else to do it for you.

[jason lollar]

having done this kind of work with routers for 35 years- its all I have ever done I can attest there is nothing inherently dangerous about using a router and forbon.
I have all 10 fingers and have cut out over 10,000 pieces with this method and never had it grab BUT having trained many people I can also say there is a way to fuck everything up in ways I never imagined.
there is no resin in forbon- grabbing is probably how much you feeed in in what direction against the rotation or with and if it was on a raduis of the jig or a flat spot

[Joe Gwinn]

well maybe my router bit isn't as sharp as it used to be but I had that problem from the beginning. No the router isn't too slow, its a standard large size router, high speed with table. Forbon isn't like wood, its a compressed paper product and has some kind of resin in it as well. My bit isn't real fat, maybe thats a problem? But for sure if I got 1/4 inch of forbon sticking out the edge of the template the bit will grab it and throw the piece because the bit has sunk in too much and is grabbing too much material. You need to have a real firm grip on the piece your feeding, a light grip and it will for sure fling that thing into the wall. If you've never used a router before you need to be real careful or your guitar playing days could be ended real fast.

It may be time to buy a new carbide router bit. Steel probably dulls too quickly.

What is the diameter of the bit? The smaller the bit the higher the required RPMs. The key is the speed of the cutting edge, in feet per minute. A larger diameter bit may be the key.

There is also a limit to how fast one can cut, although the highr the RPMs the faster one can cut without burning or grabbing.

There is no resin in forbon. Forbon is basically brown paper that's been steeped in a zinc chloride solution, which turns the cellulose into a kind of gel. The gelled paper is then pressed, and then the ZnCl is washed out, and the cellulose reverts to type, welding the layers together. http://www.nvf.com/news/news.htm

Anyway, fobon is no harder to route than wood.

[Possum]

no resin???

Why is it then that the Forbon flats I used to buy from SK all had gooey edges from the laser cutting? No resin? I had to wash these damn things in alcohol to get that sticky stuff off.

Yeh I probably had bad technique in the beginning using the router table, I haven't had one thrown from my hands in a long time but occasionally if the stack I'm cutting tilts a tiny bit the router bit will dig into it real quick and can destroy the template in the process. My whole point was that for a beginner a router is a dangerous tool, so if you get one and never had one before be darn careful; that thing still is the scariest piece of equipment I have and still hate cutting tele neck tops on it. Router tables generally have all these safety guards and fences but they are useless when cutting tiny pieces.....

[Spence]

Hmmm, that sounds interesting. Any resources?

~Stan

Micromark sell mini mills for modellers. You really don't need anything bigger. They also sell a mini lathe. Both these items have metal gear wheels too.
It depends on how much you want to do this. If you really wanted to cut this stuff so badly try using a band saw before lashing out the cash. They're good enough for cutting pick guards.