Gibson weirdness SG P90 mounting....

[David Schwab]

Well if you're finishing a guitar with heavy plasticizers in it, its going to be more like a poly finish, i think he said the finish was thick too, that stuff does matter. From photos I've seen of vintage les Pauls from the classic era those finishes were pretty thin, which would allow the guitar to be more resonant. There is a video on youtube a comparison of a historic and DiMarzio's old 'burst played acoustically, the historic sounds bright and harsh, the vintage one sounds loud and mellow. We've argued about this before, poly and thick finishes make a hard edged sounding guitar. They aren't finishing them the way they originally were done.

My experience is that the finish doesn't change the tone of a solid body guitar.

I've built guitars and played them with no finish, and then with finish, and they don't sound any different. Mind you I wasn't spraying on a 1/8" of poly, but I was using a catalyzed lacquer and also two part urethanes.

The mass of the body far outweighs the finish. To illustrate the point, get a banjo and spray some finish on the head and then when that's dry see if you hear any difference.

And how would too much plasticizers make a harsh sounding guitar? That would be a flexible finish. Oiled guitars don't sound harsh.

Now people that claim that removing the finish made the guitar sound better either sanded off some wood in the process, allowed moisture to get into the wood (like the people that leave the guitar unfinished), or just forgot what the guitar sounded like.

That's my opinion anyway.

[David Schwab]

Yeah right.

I've read this quite a few times though. Gibson seems to think they are building guitars for collectors, not players. Why else would a Zakk Wylde Les Paul be $10,000? What's it made out of? Unobtainium?

Or $6,000 for a Slash signature LP... he didn't even play a real Gibson on those early GNR records!

It's just about greed and cashing in.

[Possum]

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Jeez, David, this is an old argument, finish DOES make a difference. Again I'll repeat my experience with a cheap Squire strat I have. I got it for $99 from a guy to use as a test guitar. It has of course the poly finish, make in Malaysia. I hated that guitar from the start. It has the big headstock Fender design. Real harsh sounding. I hated it so much I decided to relic the crap out of it the easy way, so got out my heat gun and started melting off the finish and leaving burn marks in the wood. Then I sanded it too and got off most of the finish, it turned out very cool looking actually, and now it has Nick Curran and Kirk Fletcher's autographs on it to boot. The difference with the poly finish off was night and day. The tone of the guitar blossomed out and mellowed out significantly. I love that guitar now. Finishes don't matter? The difference between a poly finish and a thin nitro finish is audible. I have an Epiphone Les Paul and a cheap LP copy that has a thin nitro finish on it from the factory, the Epi sounds bright and hard, the other guitar sounds mellow and loud. The resonance of the wood is affected by what you enclose it in. Hard poly finishes sound like that, hard edged. Thin nitro sounds much softer and mellow. Maybe on a bass the finish doesn't matter but on a guitar where much higher frequencies are being reproduced it definitely makes a difference, and my friend's refinish of his Historic is just another example of that. He is a studio musician who's business is tone, he knows what he's hearing.

[David Schwab]

Like I said, you sanded the finish off. And probably some wood.

Start with a new guitar with no finish, and then apply finish and see. Then remove the finish and give it an oil finish. lol

Also the longer you play a new guitar the warmer it sounds. Just being string up a while does it. They all sound very tight and hard in the beginning. Thats why you have to hear one new with no finish to compare.

You know you will have less dead spots on the neck with a big headstock. it's good to have mass up there to counterbalance the string tension.

But I agree that most poly finishes are ugly and have no place on a guitar. Pedula makes a real nice bass with a polyester finish.

Red guitars are still louder though.

[Possum]

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WHATTTT??????? Green flourescent guitars are WAAAAAY LOUDER!

Actually that strat still has finish on it, its not really a bare wood body. I have alot of poly finish guitars, none of them have warmed up over the years. I keep debating whether to sand off the finish on my Dot. I played Chris Cain's 335 80's reissue, that thing was super light and real resonant like the old ones. Occasionally one good one slips through the Gibson cracks now and then. I played a real recent 335 from Gibson, it didn't really sound any better than the Dot to be honest. And the guy got rid of it. Expensive wall furniture.....

[David Schwab]

Green flourescent guitars are brighter!

So if your strat still has finish on it, why does it sound different now?

I have an Ibanez bass with a poly finish, and that's a nice warm sounding instrument. My nitro finished bass is brighter sounding.

It's just when people start talking about finish and tone, they get into a lot of nonsense like;

• the wood can't breathe ... well it doesn't breathe, it's dead!
• nitro lets the moisture out so the wood will be dryer... well if moisture can get out, in can get in too! So, no, nitro doesn't do that.
• it stops the wood from vibrating. That's just too funny.
• it reflects the sound back up to the strings... that's even funnier.

I have angry letters from people who believe all those things and actually emailed me after I said finish doesn't effect the tone of a solid body! But not a single one ever built a guitar. All their experience comes from buying a cheap ass Squier and sanding the finish off. It wasn't a good guitar to begin with, but they miss that point. Cheap guitars are often finished in poly. But you can find very nice instruments finished in poly too, and they sound great. Because they are better guitars.

Look at all those vintage Fenders that were sealed in Fullerplast. That's a hard poly type finish. Ever try to remove that stuff? They don't suck either.

[Possum]

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Because it doesn't have much finish compared to the gobs of crap I scraped off it.
Look at it this way- wood is porous right? Finishes like poly aren't. Poly finishes are usually sprayed on pretty thick. Its like you have a piece of styrofoam, it has a pretty soft resonance if you cut into a guitar body shape. Now seal all the outside in poly, now you got something that resonates at a much high frequency, its like adding a hard shell. Nitros aren't usually gobbed on real thick because it probably won't dry well for one thing. What kind of finishes do they put on expensive violins? Poly? I doubt it, you'd probably have the violin police knocking down your doors in the middle of the night. If finishes had no effect then violins may as well be painted by auto painters in blue sparkle candy. Solid body guitars do have a resonance you can hear. Ever go to a guitar store and put your ear to the same model of guitar and play 10 of them. Some sound dead, some sound amazingly alive, they all have the same hardware, same finishes, its the wood thats different in each one.

One of the reasons the vintage Les Pauls are much louder and mellower sounding is because they didn't use heavy finishes on them. My own cheap junk Stellar has a light nitro finish on it and it has a nice warm resonance, and is very big sounding. My Epi LP has the usual ton of poly on it, guess which one never gets played?

Of course your bass sounds warm, ITS A BASS!

[David Schwab]

Look at it this way- wood is porous right? Finishes like poly aren't. Poly finishes are usually sprayed on pretty thick. Its like you have a piece of styrofoam, it has a pretty soft resonance if you cut into a guitar body shape. Now seal all the outside in poly, now you got something that resonates at a much high frequency, its like adding a hard shell.

No, it sounds good, but doesn't work that way. The finish is too thin to affect the body resonance, unless you are talking about an acoustic instrument, like a violin. But we aren't. Violins don't weigh much.

Notice on an acoustic guitar, that if you lay your arm on the body when you play it changes the tone. That doesn't happen on a solid body, so if your arm can't do it, a thin film of finish can't either.

You made your guitar a little lighter, but you didn't unblock the pores.

Clamp a piece of brass to your headstock and listen to the difference in tone.

One of the reasons the vintage Les Pauls are much louder and mellower sounding is because they didn't use heavy finishes on them. My own cheap junk Stellar has a light nitro finish on it and it has a nice warm resonance, and is very big sounding. My Epi LP has the usual ton of poly on it, guess which one never gets played?

Of course your bass sounds warm, ITS A BASS!

My buddy has about 16 Les Pauls. They all sound different. Same finish, but some sound better. Some are lighter than others too.

Now one way to look at it is you don't play the Epi much, so of course the tone hasn't warmed up! And how do you know the Steller has nitro on it?

Basses are often very bright sounding. The only reason they are warm is they are tuned low. But some basses have more top end than others.

[Vihar]

Green flourescent guitars are brighter!

So if your strat still has finish on it, why does it sound different now?

I have an Ibanez bass with a poly finish, and that's a nice warm sounding instrument. My nitro finished bass is brighter sounding.

It's just when people start talking about finish and tone, they get into a lot of nonsense like;

• the wood can't breathe ... well it doesn't breathe, it's dead!
• nitro lets the moisture out so the wood will be dryer... well if moisture can get out, in can get in too! So, no, nitro doesn't do that.
• it stops the wood from vibrating. That's just too funny.
• it reflects the sound back up to the strings... that's even funnier.

I have angry letters from people who believe all those things and actually emailed me after I said finish doesn't effect the tone of a solid body! But not a single one ever built a guitar. All their experience comes from buying a cheap ass Squier and sanding the finish off. It wasn't a good guitar to begin with, but they miss that point. Cheap guitars are often finished in poly. But you can find very nice instruments finished in poly too, and they sound great. Because they are better guitars.

Look at all those vintage Fenders that were sealed in Fullerplast. That's a hard poly type finish. Ever try to remove that stuff? They don't suck either.

Comes from the guy who wrote this: http://music-electronics-forum.com/t15774/#post128071

[Possum]

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Well, I disagree. I bet you in a lab setting, acoustic measurement on a solid body guitar using different finishes and no finish can easily be seen and measured.
Would I pay big bucks for a poly finished Les Paul, no. I've seen in my pickups work that tiny things are cumulative, by themselves you'd think they don't matter, add up alot of tiny things and you get an "effect." I think finishes are one of those small things that should be paid attention to in going for an overall goal. If you're trying to recreate a vintage instrument you should do everything that was done back then as closely as possible. I hate poly finished strats, personally, and the one good one I own is a '57 reissue, all nitro finished, it feels and sounds better than the poly ones I never liked.

Along that line, here's a website a customer pointed me to. they make steel strat springs and saddles. They paid attention to details, being that old 50's steels aren't the same as what is made now and developed products using that information. I intend to buy this stuff real soon and my customer said it was worth the money:
Raw Vintage

[David Schwab]

Comes from the guy who wrote this: http://music-electronics-forum.com/t15774/#post128071

Yep, and I stand by that. And I have the necks to prove it!

[Possum]

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Off topic but if you want a really totally accurate 1959 Les Paul copy, with, uh,,,,,,er......poly finish, and uhmmm computer quick connectors on the pickups and , wellllll plastic coated wiring, and the really authentic, headstock? Oh forget it! $2,000 and its yours, guaranteed to depreciate in value:
Epiphone Musical Instruments - News

[Possum]

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Ed Roman, despite what you may think of him, has some intelligent thoughts here on how guitars are finished, food for thought:
Poly vs Nitro Guitar Finishes - Ed Roman Guitars

[David Schwab]

Off topic but if you want a really totally accurate 1959 Les Paul copy, with, uh,,,,,,er......poly finish, and uhmmm computer quick connectors on the pickups and , wellllll plastic coated wiring, and the really authentic, headstock? Oh forget it! $2,000 and its yours, guaranteed to depreciate in value:
Epiphone Musical Instruments - News

I hate those Epi headstocks. And where's the pick guard?

For $2,500 you can pick up a used 80's LP.

Here's a few of my buddy's guitars. He has about eight more I think. Check out the Aldo Nova model with the Explorer headstock. Most of them are the Historic models. Do any of them have poly finishes? Maybe. They all sound nice though, but different. The Custom in the back is from the 70's. It has a big fat neck.

[Possum]

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Thats pretty sick, LPaholic, sad, there is NO cure for that. The idea of a historic Epiphone '59 is perverted, will they really sell? You're right, for that much money you could buy a really nice Japanese 80s LP thats more authentic than any Gibson is. Or better yet a Heritage made by the REAL guys who made those old 'bursts, I just wish they could've used a similar headstock shape, not thrilled about Heritage's version.

Here's a picture of me and my guitar collection, some people call me "slashpossum:"
http://www.celebrityrockstarguitars....ashguitars.jpg