the heretic recants

[Superferrite]

There is a series of phases you will go through as pickup maker that pretty much everyone goes through. Phase one, you wind your first couple of pickups and wow they sound better than anything you bought. Phase two, you've been doing it for a whole year and think you have a grip on it all and feel confident in what you're doing and are sure you're the new genius on the block. Phase three, probably around two years, you tried some experiments and are trying to understand the physics of coils, wire and magnets, and realize you don't know much, and probably had a pro guitar player tell you your stuff sucks. Phase four, if you made it this far 3-4 years, you've done your homework, burned alot of wire and parts in extensive experiments and have a better handle on it things, but realize no one can know it all. You probably bought an LCR meter maybe, and tried using computer software to analyze frequency response and peak resonances. You start to get a sense that pickups are amazingly complex things to really understand and manipulate. Phase five 5 years plus, you know you will never know it all and for every step forward there are two steps back, then three steps forward, and you just accept that you excel at some things and suck at others. Phase six, you wonder why the fuck you got into this business if you're doing it full time, but still love it. You're bored with the crap parts all the companies sell and you start to truly create original products and stretch out. Phase 7 you die of old age and still didn't know it all and never stopped learning. With your last breath you muttered "humbucker....." Your wife thought you were crazy through all the phases.

Before I had any idea I could wind my own pickups, I was dabbling in the "boutique effects" thing. The exact same thing as you guys are talking about was bandied about on there (and I think there is some overlap of personel).

You have all these "kit" companies, and boatloads of builders copying each other and resurrecting ancient designs. Then you have the real deals who build on the shoulders of their predecessors and tweak each component scientifically. Some come up with new stuff that is really unique because of study, work, and inspiration.

I'll never be one of these FX gurus or a real pickup designer (hell--I'm really just a pizza guy), but I respect all the contributions to the hobby for the sake of good sounds.

[David Schwab]

(hell--I'm really just a pizza guy)

[in a Homer voice] Mmmmmmmm... pizza.

Pizza is good!

[peskywinnets]

Some thought provoking stuff above akin to my 'stock trading ethos'.

Basically, when I started out stock trading I knew jack shit...lost a bundle, I then went on to study it deeply...the more I learnt, the more my head got polluted utlimately resulting in more indecision (in short, the more I learned the less I knew!) - and still lost a bundle. Now I keep it simple (at least now when I lose dosh, it's easy to figure out why!)

Now never having wound a pickup in my life (I'm sticking with sustainers for now ...but I do have a good techie head), I do wonder just how much of a significant difference there really is between the majority of pickups wound by those who are all sourcing their parts from the same places (& often winding to the same published pickup characteristics). Ok, ok, so each will wind slightly differently resulting in some slightly different underlying characteristics (eg more winding capacitance = less trebles etc). But I can't help feeling there's a lot of snake oil being sold wrt pickups.**



**those who take the trouble to eke out their own unique parts...I have the highest respect for and the snake oil statement doesn't apply

[Mark Hammer]

Thats the other big hurdle....amps. Jason told me he pretty much has one of every basic kind of amp out there to test pickups with. That was real discouraging to hear when I started out and all I had was the Blues Junior and broke. I have most amp types except the bigger Marshalls, someday though. It is completely amazing how PAFs in particular can sound so different in different amps, the tweed type Victoria I have really emphasizes the bass and mids and cuts the treble down, they get muddy pretty fast in that one. Live testing is really important, the worst time I made a truly horrible set it sounded great through the BJ in my home office, but at the jam through a real amp they were awful and I found that out by convincing one of the pros to try them onstage, while I melted into a pool of embarrassed goo on the floor...

This is parallel to the strategy that so many recording studios used over the years: a mix is not really final until it sounds good through the expensive monitors and the little Videoton or Auralex 5" monitors. The pickup is important, but there are so many things it has to go through before the sound reaches your ears.

[ShannonH]

I'm with ya...

Thats the other big hurdle....amps. Jason told me he pretty much has one of every basic kind of amp out there to test pickups with. That was real discouraging to hear when I started out and all I had was the Blues Junior and broke.

I have a friend with a Mesa, another with a Soldano and a marshall (And a really awesome old Ampeg master volume) another with a fender. I do the rounds with a pickup and leave it in a guitar for about 4 month am before I really pass judgment. I never test with pedals, mostly because I almost never use a pedal. They tend to taint the tone, as it were. One day I'd like to have at least combo amps with the major amplification models to test through. It's tedious to have to test everywhere but at home, but it works for now.

Now if I could get my left hand to do what my brain tells it!

Thanks for all the positive feedback. Its nice to know that we all have dealt with similar issues. The great thing about a forum like this where we all labor alone, is that we can find out we're not really alone. Now I'm getting maudlin, sorry.

Shannons

[Possum]

.....

We didn't even talk about guitar cords Those have a huge effect on your tone as well. The days of coil cords were awful, but they helped bright Fender pickups tone down.....

[LtKojak]

We didn't even talk about guitar cords Those have a huge effect on your tone as well. The days of coil cords were awful, but they helped bright Fender pickups tone down.....

Don't get me started on the BS I've seen lately trying to justify the over $ 100.00 tag for a 20" feet guitar cord... and even worse, $ 145.00 for 1 foot speaker cord that works in one way and has to be "broken in" to "sound good".

I just don't know how, where and when people got so gullible... so much for Darwin's theory of "evolution"!

[David Schwab]

Don't get me started on the BS I've seen lately trying to justify the over $ 100.00 tag for a 20" feet guitar cord... and even worse, $ 145.00 for 1 foot speaker cord that works in one way and has to be "broken in" to "sound good".

I just don't know how, where and when people got so gullible... so much for Darwin's theory of "evolution"!

Cables do sound different though. I wouldn't spend $100 on one, but I'm in rehearsal studios all the time, and they have amps with the cables attached with wire ties. In the one room they had a Monster cable made for bass. It was much darker sounding than my Spectraflex. I didn't like it. I used to have a generic instrument Monster cable, and that sounds the same as the Spectraflex that replaced it. it lasted me a good 25 years before it got too noisy to use. I couldn't be bothered to try and get it replaced.. it was quicker to buy a new one.

As far as speaker cables... I used to make my own from heavy gauge zip cord. I did break down and buy one recently when I misplaced the one I made. I think I paid $25 for the thing, but it's very heavy duty and well made. I can't imagine speaker cables have a break in period.

[Joe Gwinn]

Cables do sound different though. I wouldn't spend $100 on one, but I'm in rehearsal studios all the time, and they have amps with the cables attached with wire ties. In the one room they had a Monster cable made for bass. It was much darker sounding than my Spectraflex. I didn't like it. I used to have a generic instrument Monster cable, and that sounds the same as the Spectraflex that replaced it. it lasted me a good 25 years before it got too noisy to use. I couldn't be bothered to try and get it replaced.. it was quicker to buy a new one.

By far the largest effect is the capacitance of the cable, with which the pickup inductance resonates. This capacitance is easily measured using the Extech. It's most convenient if one makes a 1/4 phone jack to banana plug adapter to make a solid connection between cable and instrument.

Also record the "d" (dissipation) value, to see if it makes any difference. Dissipation will vary with the type of dielectric between the conductors. I very much doubt that it makes a difference, but it's easy enough to test.

Anyway, for a valid A-B comparison of cable types, the cable capacitances must be equal.

As far as speaker cables... I used to make my own from heavy gauge zip cord. I did break down and buy one recently when I misplaced the one I made. I think I paid $25 for the thing, but it's very heavy duty and well made.

Heavy zipcord works quite well. What also works very well is the speaker wire sold in electrical supply houses, intended for running inside walls to drive wall mounted speakers. This is basically two-conductor #14 stranded low-voltage wire, and is very cheap as it makes no golden-ear claims.

I can't imagine speaker cables have a break in period.

Well they do have a wearout period, but break-in? I don't think so. What's most likely going on is convincing the customer to keep the cable long enough that their ears adjust to whatever the cable does. So it's the customer who needs to be broken in.

[David Schwab]

Anyway, for a valid A-B comparison of cable types, the cable capacitances must be equal.

I believe that Monster made the bass cable higher in capacitance to make it sound.. ummm, bassier.

Heavy zipcord works quite well. What also works very well is the speaker wire sold in electrical supply houses, intended for running inside walls to drive wall mounted speakers. This is basically two-conductor #14 stranded low-voltage wire, and is very cheap as it makes no golden-ear claims.

That's a god tip.

Well they do have a wearout period, but break-in? I don't think so. What's most likely going on is convincing the customer to keep the cable long enough that their ears adjust to whatever the cable does. So it's the customer who needs to be broken in.

I figured "break-in time" was the amount of time it takes for the listener to forget what the old component sounded like. Since there is now no direct A/B comparison, the placebo effect then kicks in.

There's also the effect of the listener not wanting to feel stupid that he doesn't hear an improvement.. and lest his ears not being golden, concludes he hears a vast improvement in detail and stereo sound stage.

[salvarsan]

As if anyone needed confirmation of the blatant fraud in audiophile advertising copy, a Google search on "audiophile bullshit" has 1/4 million hits. I know what you're wondering: "Why so few?"


-drh

[David Schwab]

Did you ever see that little 1/4 oz bottle of lacquer ($100) some place sells to paint on all your audio gear to make it sound better? Then there was the $600 wooden knob that was supposed to make your power amp sound better. Another guy sold varnish that you paint on your plastic ICs to make them sound like... TUBES!

Even the cheap stuff, like pealing the shrink wrap off your aluminum can caps seems just stupid.

What's wrong with all these people? I have good ears, and built a great pair of speakers by carefully choosing parts from Radio Shack! A friend of mine that had $1000/pair of speakers snubbed the idea... until he heard them. He thought they sounded pretty close to his speakers.