Incompeten Boob! Continued!

[WolfeMacleod]

I am LIVID. I am BEYOND LIVID. I AM MURDEROUS!

Well, after getting sample after sample of polepiece screws, and finally approving ONE sample screw, and letting them know that the other samples were unnaceptable, I finally received my order of 25,000 screws today.

They f*cked 'em up. Bigtime. The screws on the right is what I received. The screws on the left are what I approved.
Notice how the screw on the right has a tapered head? Not uniform and squared on the sides...

I am out of the useable screws. Ran out yesterday. It took a month for them to fuck up an order....so it'll probably take a month for them to correct it.

[kevinT]

WTF

WTF!!! Unbelievable....You call that a fillister head?

That is the problem nowadays, it seems you can't get anything done right. From having something done around the house to getting good food at a restaurant.....some way, some how, they always end up F**king it up.

I'm getting ready to put my order in for polepieces...I dread the outcome.

I will use your photo to show the vendor what not to do!!!

[Joe Gwinn]

Please stop the moaning and whining.

If it isn't in writing, it isn't going to happen.

This is how it's done in industry, and they are not going to change for us. We will have to change for them.

You need control diagrams. Period.

[WolfeMacleod]

Please stop the moaning and whining.

If it isn't in writing, it isn't going to happen.

This is how it's done in industry, and they are not going to change for us. We will have to change for them.

You need control diagrams. Period.

Man, this WAS in writing. Control diagram or not, we went through a rigorous approval and refusal phase.
If I didn't have $10,000 worth of orders to complete before FRIDAY, I woulnd't be bitchin about someone's obvious mistake..let alone that they had a seriously late in shipping.
The control diagram is HERE, and these screws look nothing like it. Notice how the sides of the head are straght, and not tapered? The screws I received are not straight


And perhaps I should post a few more pictures, so you get the idea of just how screwdd up these screws really are.

[Spence]

I sympatize with you. They are rubbish. How incredibly crap is that manufacturer? You'll probably be tied up completing your order for Friday but shortly after that I would be putting in a call to my lawyer.

One question though. Assuming your $10,000 orders are regular rather than say once a year, who were you using for screw poles before?

I often complain about British Industry but that kind of screw-up wouldn't have happened if I had provided a tech drawing and a sample.

[NightWinder]

Are there any reputable sources over in the Uk? This shit has to stop.....
Are these the EXACT deminsions (ABOVE DIAGRAM). I can have a 3d diagram next week, on cd. Maybe that could teach them assholes......
Wolfe, you should get comped for troubles, and the next correct batch should be free.........IF they are correct. Call the Legal council. AH them motherfu#@!rs

[WolfeMacleod]

You'll probably be tied up completing your order for Friday but shortly after that I would be putting in a call to my lawyer.

One question though. Assuming your $10,000 orders are regular rather than say once a year, who were you using for screw poles before?

I won't be able to complete these orders. They're OEM for NAMM show guitars, and various individual orders that I need to ship out before we leave for NAMM on Sunday.

I was using the same supplier that I got these from. Lindy Fralin uses the same place, and he'll be mighty pissed off if his next order contains the same screws. I've already spoke to him, and he overnighted me a handfull of screws so I can get at least SOME of these done in time for the more important people. They're a bit different than mine, but they'll work well. Perhaps a marginally nicer head than the ones I had before...and self-tapping, to boot - although I don't do the self-tapping thing.

Oh...and I believe they're made of the original grade steel that he PAF screws were made from, juding by conversaions with Lindy.

It's good to have friends...I need to send him some polepiece slugs today!

[madialex]

I agree

Ok so you have gone round and round with these idiots for a good while now, I remember the first post about it and every time you did not approve them and sent them back, then you get one you like and ok it and they fuck it up, what a damn shame. It's like that in almost every thing I deal with, food, home repairs, car repairs etc... Just shit these days, WTF happened along the way to now?? Hope you get them right this time and yes you should get the order for nothing but maybe shipping and I dont even feel you should do that.

Lindy is a great guy and will help anyone when they need it to an extent. He's not going to give the farm away but still he will help the best he can. Good Luck Bro..

[Spence]

Are there any reputable sources over in the Uk? This shit has to stop.....
Are these the EXACT deminsions (ABOVE DIAGRAM). I can have a 3d diagram next week, on cd. Maybe that could teach them assholes......
Wolfe, you should get comped for troubles, and the next correct batch should be free.........IF they are correct. Call the Legal council. AH them motherfu#@!rs

Why don't you use Micro Fasteners in the US. They know what they're doing.

[Possum]

they did something wrong....

Wolfe to me, with my background in jewelry work, it looks like they were tumbled or something, and waaaay too long. I don't know if screw makers tumble polish their screws but notice how all the edges are rounded off, there's no sharp edges anywhere. Could it be they do some kind of acid etch before plating? Somebody fucked this up big time and let them out the door. Wish I knew more about screw making process. Sorry to hear this, what a freaking disaster.

I wish I had my screws done would loan you some but too late. Anyway, here's the screws I'm having done to my specs. I asked them to make the heads a little wider when they do them over, they zinc plated these by mistake. The screw on the right is from a circa '55-57 P-90, notice how deep the head is and that the head has a slight taper to it.

[Possum]

tolerances....

If you look at Wolfe's sheet, I think this is from the same manual I was faxed a sheet from, there is no such thing as an EXACT perfect spec'd screw, there are tolerances allowable for any machine screw. If you want super exact consistent screws you probably have to buy a screw machine yourself. I think its worth it to find one supplier and try to train them to what you want. The guys I'm using have been pretty cooperative and friendly, the zinc plating thing was the plater's mistake, they don't plate in-house, its just not worth it to ream someone out and burn bridges sometimes. When I get my actual order done right I can pass along their name maybe if any of you want to do a group buy or something.

[Joe Gwinn]

Man, this WAS in writing. Control diagram or not, we went through a rigorous approval and refusal phase.
If I didn't have $10,000 worth of orders to complete before FRIDAY, I wouldn't be bitchin about someone's obvious mistake..let alone that they had a seriously late in shipping.

The control diagram is HERE, and these screws look nothing like it. Notice how the sides of the head are straght, and not tapered? The screws I received are not straight.

The key question is if the screws nonetheless fit in the envelope defined by the max and min dimensions in the table. It will take some quality time with a caliper to tell.

Note that there is no specific requirement that the sides be straight, despite the drawing. Only that they fit within the envelope. In other words, while the drawing is informative, only the table governs. If straight sides are in addition required, you have to say so.

On a control drawing. A table from a standard is not a control drawing. Standards tend to enshrine the lowest common denominator, as their intent is commonality and intermateability, not quality per se.

And perhaps I should post a few more pictures, so you get the idea of just how screwed up these screws really are.

I can see what happened. The head of the bad screw (on the left) was formed with a two-part mold (top and sides, bottom) and its screwdriver slot was formed as part of cold-forming the head, but was not cut. The head of the good screw (on the right) was instead formed in a three-part mold (top, side, and bottom), and its screwdriver slot was cut with a slotting saw, all this is more expensive to do than the process used to make the bad screw. No surprise here.

But absent information not in the table, the manufacturer (in China?) felt perfectly justified in using the cheaper process, so long as the screws just met the letter of the standard. So, it was not a mistake on the supplier's part.

Your basic argument against the screwmaker is not that they didn't make screws to spec, but the more nebulous but perhaps still effective argument that they pulled a bait-and-switch in the quality department, showing you a far better made screw than they planned to supply.

I'll not nag you any more, but I think it's time to try using a control drawing. This is costing too much time and money. And hair loss.

[Possum]

china????

Man if Wolfe's screws came from china they used a bait and switch trick on him, sending him samples made here and dumping junk on him hoping he woulnd't notice. Andy C told me the chinese screw makers are pretty bad...

Those screws are pretty bad, they surely wouldn't pass in the aircraft industry. If it took way longer for them to get him the product, it could be chinese, that sucks. Sounds kind of like he got caught in a policy change of trying to make more profits by going offshore, especially if they have a reputation for making good screws from one of the other pickup makers. I hope he didn't pay them up front, proably did so what does he do now?


Joe, the guys I used is the company you recommended from your machine club or whatever you said, after seeing Wolfe's problems I think these guys turned out to be pretty good. Real slow though, real slow...

[kevinT]

It looks like they have a fillister head machine screw similar to the ones you received at Amazon.com

http://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Fill...8&s=industrial

I found a handy training manual on screws...probably more than you ever wanted to know about them.

http://www.jamesglen.com.au/training/training.htm

I would of attached the pdf but the file was too large.

[JGundry]

I suspect that some of the rounded edges on the screws you have is from them buying zinc plated screws and stripping off the zinc before they were nickel plated. Perhaps tumbles acid washed or both. Clearly though those are not even close to the sample you were sent.

Dave I hope your place does not strip the zinc off the screws and then nickel plate then and send the same screws back to you except now with rounded edges.