Rickenbacker Bass Pickup

[6string_rodder]

6string_rodder, we're trying to teach you something here. If you want to be a smart ass go somewhere else. You came in asking about the pickup, so we are telling you about the pickup.

I didn't have to come here to be a smart ass, I was born that way

As I said, that pickup was either wound with 44 and you didn't read it correctly, or someone rewound it at some point. If you look at a stock Ric bridge pickup, the bobbin is nowhere near full.

As a couple of examples, here's a '69 Hi-Gain and my own '73 Hi-Gain bridge pickups. You can see how little wire there are on the bobbins.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]17572[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]17571[/ATTACH]

That is all good, solid information and I am grateful for it. It wasn't however relevant here.

I came here to have a level and open discussion hoping to find a solution to a problem -Did my best to direct the discussion to what was relevant to the case at hand rather than general Ric history. -Didn't quite succeed, oh well.


P.S. It's Thunder Cats or Heman or one of those shows....

[David Schwab]

I'm not sure how it wasn't relevant. You did not rewind the pickup to spec.

That's fine if that was the idea, but you did come here asking:

I have a rewind to do on bridge p.up from a 70's 4001 Ric.
Its came in open so I have no idea what the resistance is supposed to be. The neck reads 8.2k on this bass, so I'm gonna aim this side of 9 for the bridge, which seems to be in the ballpark from what I've read here.

We told you. If you skim back through the replies they all basically said the same thing I did. We even told you were to get 44 gauge wire.

P.S. It's Thunder Cats or Heman or one of those shows....

I never saw either one. I stopped watching cartoons way before those shows were on. I was 28 when Thundercats came out!

[RedHouse]

Hey all, new to the forum here- I've gotten some useful info here in the past, thought maybe I'd start contributing.

I have a rewind to do on bridge p.up from a 70's 4001 Ric.
Its came in open so I have no idea what the resistance is supposed to be. The neck reads 8.2k on this bass, so I'm gonna aim this side of 9 for the bridge, which seems to be in the ballpark from what I've read here.

As for the wire, my mic says it's .003", and I mean exactly .003" or even slightly over, (yes, that includes insulation I know..)which leads me to believe its #42
I'll let you know results when I'm done, as in how many turns it took and how the output balances etc.

Incidentally, I have no idea where to source #44 wire- any tips will be appreciated.
And to pick up an earlier topic from this thread, I charge $40/coil plus my standard install/remove fee which $30/p.up in most cases. It's a little on the low side for where I am (Toronto) but I'm kind of new to winding and it's my "thanks for the vote of confidence" price for the time being until I get some more copper under my belt.

This was your OP and everyone tried to answer your question (actually everyone did answer your question) all the rest was just bs.

We told ya what the DCR should be, what the wire gauge ALWAYS is/was on vintage Rickenbacker stuff, and several told ya where to buy some wire.

At what point did you not find your solution?

[soundmasterg]

Yeah, but no Ric pickup is 5.8K. Even with 44gauge wire. The pickups in my '73 are around 8K and the new ones are about 12k.

All Ric pickups are wound with 44 AWG and have been for the last 50 years.

There are actually quite a few older 50's Ric toasters that were 5.8k and less. RIC was making them at 3.5k on the early Lennon clone/reissue and using 44 gauge. Yikes bright!! I suspect those older ones were 43 or 42 gauge myself, but have nothing to document it yet. If I ever get my hands on an older Ric Capri from the 50's I plan to check it out. There are a lot of very experienced winders out there who will tell you that RIC has not always used 44 gauge wire, though they mostly have. Certainly their 70's basses were all 44 gauge, and I've seen 9k-10k on their bridge pickups from that era of basses. My old 73 had a dead bridge pickup which I had TV Jones rewind and it was 9.8k I think after he was done with it, and was a super awesome pickup! Unfortunately the guy that bought my bass when I sold it wanted that pickup instead of the new 4003 pickup I tried to offer him.

Greg

[David Schwab]

There are actually quite a few older 50's Ric toasters that were 5.8k and less. RIC was making them at 3.5k on the early Lennon clone/reissue and using 44 gauge. Yikes bright!! I suspect those older ones were 43 or 42 gauge myself, but have nothing to document it yet. If I ever get my hands on an older Ric Capri from the 50's I plan to check it out. There are a lot of very experienced winders out there who will tell you that RIC has not always used 44 gauge wire, though they mostly have. Certainly their 70's basses were all 44 gauge, and I've seen 9k-10k on their bridge pickups from that era of basses. My old 73 had a dead bridge pickup which I had TV Jones rewind and it was 9.8k I think after he was done with it, and was a super awesome pickup! Unfortunately the guy that bought my bass when I sold it wanted that pickup instead of the new 4003 pickup I tried to offer him.

Greg

I've read about some very old pickups being 42 gauge. Of course John Hall says they never used anything but 44, and he says that's based on the sales records they have for wire purchases. But I've seen lots of odd one off Rics.

[soundmasterg]

I've read about some very old pickups being 42 gauge. Of course John Hall says they never used anything but 44, and he says that's based on the sales records they have for wire purchases. But I've seen lots of odd one off Rics.

Yah thats what I'm alluding to. There are a lot of other winders over the years who are experienced enough to see if something is original or not and they say that they weren't all 44. Besides, I can't believe with those 3.5k pickups from the 50's that RIC was using 44 gauge on them! They would be super weak and insanely bright. I would guess those were 43 or 42 but I'd have to see an original example to be able to take some measurements. I'm keeping an open mind personally on the possibility....

Greg

[David Schwab]

Yah thats what I'm alluding to. There are a lot of other winders over the years who are experienced enough to see if something is original or not and they say that they weren't all 44. Besides, I can't believe with those 3.5k pickups from the 50's that RIC was using 44 gauge on them! They would be super weak and insanely bright. I would guess those were 43 or 42 but I'd have to see an original example to be able to take some measurements. I'm keeping an open mind personally on the possibility....

Yeah, I think they would have to be wound with 42 gauge if they read that low. My '72 toasters were pretty weak, and they read about 8k.

You also get a totally different tone from the thinner wire. That's where the Ric bass grunt comes from. I have a hi-gain neck pickup here that I'm rewinding from 12k back down to vintage specs.

[RedHouse]

...I have a hi-gain neck pickup here that I'm rewinding from 12k back down to vintage specs...

Yeah, when you get up over 9.5k they start getting a muddy vowel tone, more mids (and we all know why Mike) on 4001/4003 basses just doesn't sound "vintage", over 9k is a good usable tone for someone who wants to use the bass for "other than vintage" material, just not vintage ric tone.

[clementc3]

Yes, really is .003". it LOOKS huge and FEELS huge (very stiff) which is why I'm doubtful it's 44?.
Well, I have it to 5.8K and out of space. The original wind was definitely not this FAT....

To the extent that there can ever be a definitive answer to the question of whether Rickenbacker used #44 or #42 wire in their pickups, the CEO, John Hall recently posted this comment in a discussion on the RickResource Forum:

johnallg [ANOTHER USER, NOT JOHN HALL] wrote:
John Hall has stated a couple times that the only wire they ever bought for coil winding was 44 AWG but the lapsteel bobbin I have has closer to 42 AWG on it. The 1968 hi gain coil I have had a look at also looks to be heavier wire than 44 AWG.

[JOHN HALL:]
Take a piece of that wire you think is #42 and soak it in lacquer thinner to dissolve the incredibly thick varnish these old magnet wires were made with. Then measure it and I think you'll find that it's closer to #44 than #42.

That thick varnish did have a positive benefit of making the wire less susceptible to stretching which can significantly reduce the effective diameter of the wire. Unfortunately, it can also increase the capacitance of the coil, given the extra non-copper space between windings, which dampens high frequencies.
[END]

Rickresource Rickenbacker Forum • View topic - Remaking The Horseshoe Bass Bobbin

So, John Hall says that the wire on older/vintage Rickenbacker pickups has 44 AWG conductor but deceptively thick insulation so that it is frequently mistaken for 42 AWG. With modern manufacturing techniques there is probably no reason that anyone would make such wire today, which means that it is not possible to exactly duplicate the winding of the older Rickenbacker pickups.

On a somewhat related note (although I can't articulate exactly how this is related but it is, in some way), in a true blind test concert violinists were unable to tell if they were playing a Stradivarius violin or a modern violin:

How many notes would a virtuoso violinist pay for a Stradivarius? | Music | The Guardian

QUOTE:
But it appears that concert violinists cannot tell from the sound alone whether they are playing a 300-year-old Stradivarius or an instrument made last week. And, for playing quality alone, the virtuoso will opt for the modern one when asked which fiddle they would like to take home.
END QUOTE

[soundmasterg]

Yeah, when you get up over 9.5k they start getting a muddy vowel tone, more mids (and we all know why Mike) on 4001/4003 basses just doesn't sound "vintage", over 9k is a good usable tone for someone who wants to use the bass for "other than vintage" material, just not vintage ric tone.

I think the higher wind pickups work better in the neck with the 1" spacing rather than the older 1/2", but I still prefer the older and weaker pickups myself. The hotter wind ones lose some of the aggressive edge in the bridge position that the weaker pickups had. My only issue with unwinding the newer ones to a weaker resistance is that the high gains aren't scatterwound, whereas the old ones probably were. Certainly the fantastic rewind TVJones did for me was scatterwound. I miss that pickup and I will have to recreate it at some point as my RIC copy bass I made myself years ago is using a stock 4003 pickup and it just doesn't sound as good as the weaker ones.

Greg

[RedHouse]

...My only issue with unwinding the newer ones to a weaker resistance is that the high gains aren't scatterwound, whereas the old ones probably were...

IMHO, it's more attributable to the plastic bobbins they use now (to allow for the adjustable pole screws) which have changed the bobbin core dimensions, not so much the scatter'ness of the winding ...YMMV... and I'm of the opinion the "old one's weakness" might be more attributable to the funky compound magnets comming in at low 300's (gauss) than the DCR spread from 6.8k-7.6k, but, those are just my opinions.

[David Schwab]

I have a hi-gain neck pickup here for a rewind. The plastic bobbins are the same as the toasters, but with thinner adjustable pole screws. It has a seriously weak rubber magnet. I see they are also using the plastic toaster bobbins for the bridge pickups.

[jdec95]

I have a 81 ric I am redoing. I have a high gain in the neck and a S D bridge pup.
Problem is that the neck is only about half as loud as the S. D. Just wondering if it is a crappy pup, or do I need to look for something else
Thanks
Joe

[David Schwab]

I have a 81 ric I am redoing. I have a high gain in the neck and a S D bridge pup.
Problem is that the neck is only about half as loud as the S. D. Just wondering if it is a crappy pup, or do I need to look for something else
Thanks
Joe

The problem is more that the SD doesn't sound like a Rick pickup, and wasn't made to work with the originals. The newer Rick pickups are wound a lot hotter, but they are kind of muddy sounding, and the rubber magnets are weak.

So you can get a better pickup. RedHouse here makes some nice Rick pickups. Or you can go for the Duncan neck pickup. It all depends on if you want it to sound like a Rick or not. The Duncans don't sound like Rick pickups. Joe Barden makes some humbuckers for Ricks that sound more like a Rick.

[jdec95]

I figured as much!

The problem is more that the SD doesn't sound like a Rick pickup, and wasn't made to work with the originals. The newer Rick pickups are wound a lot hotter, but they are kind of muddy sounding, and the rubber magnets are weak.

So you can get a better pickup. RedHouse here makes some nice Rick pickups. Or you can go for the Duncan neck pickup. It all depends on if you want it to sound like a Rick or not. The Duncans don't sound like Rick pickups. Joe Barden makes some humbuckers for Ricks that sound more like a Rick.

Thanks! I just can't believe they sound so underpowered. I knew Ric pups are low rent' but still surprised me.
Thanks
Joe