Q for the PAF pros

[ShannonH]

The short version is this: What is the percentage of difference in the two coils you are finding in PAF pickups?

Not asking you to give away the store, but I'm interested to see which ones sounded better. If it makes it easier, put it in a range, say 1-3% or some such thing. I currently wind some of my humbuckers asymmetrically (can't think of a better way to say it) with up to 10% difference between coils (although they generally fall in the 5-7% range.

Thanks in Advance

Shannon

[Spence]

Just do what ever sounds best to you. There never was a standard and some sound great with no difference at all.

[ShannonH]

Just do what ever sounds best to you. There never was a standard and some sound great with no difference at all.

Very true. It's just hard to me to pin down why. Were some better because they had a bit more scatter to the winding or was it because of the asymmetry? I just want to create a consistently reproducible sound that I clearly understand. I think I need to do a lot more experimenting....

[belwar]

It's all personal preference. I like about 300 winds difference between the two myself. Scatter isnt an issue since they were machine wound.

[JGundry]

One thing you can do is use is use different spools within the 42 AWG tolerance for slug and screw coils. Both 42 AWG but different diameters within the 42AWG tolerance. Just doing this will produce an offset for the same number of turns.

[ShannonH]

It's all personal preference. I like about 300 winds difference between the two myself. Scatter isnt an issue since they were machine wound.

I guess I always figured the older machines could be a little "hiccupy" and create some variation per layer. I mean really, If what made the sound great was absolutely perfect coils every time, wouldn't what we have now be good enough? Why want a Leesona if it does what every other winder does? Not disagreeing, just sayin'.

[Bruce Johnson]

That's the secret of pickup building:
Perfectly made pickups sound unappealing. Cheezy pickups sound like crap. The pros figure out just how much cheeze to add to make them sound appealing, but without sounding like crap.

I'm only half kidding. That's why the whole field of building fine musical instruments is enjoyable (and frustrating!). Perfection doesn't sound good to the human brain. Small amounts of roughness and error in tones tell our brains that the source is alive and almost....human. But put in too much, and it sounds like roughness and error.

[soundmasterg]

I guess I always figured the older machines could be a little "hiccupy" and create some variation per layer. I mean really, If what made the sound great was absolutely perfect coils every time, wouldn't what we have now be good enough? Why want a Leesona if it does what every other winder does? Not disagreeing, just sayin'.

Well the thing with the Leesona is that it's construction and limitations are what makes it a unique winder. There aren't really any ready made winders out there that you could get that do what it does, even though the others are machines. And hand-winding won't get you where you want to go necessarily in duplicating old PAF tones either....

Greg

[JGundry]

I guess I always figured the older machines could be a little "hiccupy" and create some variation per layer. I mean really, If what made the sound great was absolutely perfect coils every time, wouldn't what we have now be good enough? Why want a Leesona if it does what every other winder does? Not disagreeing, just sayin'.

There is no such ting a a perfectly wound bobbin with an old winder. The Leesona 102 is not exactly hiccupy. It does some things unique to it but it repeats them with each layer it lays down. That is really what is unique about any of the old machines. The quirks of the machine repeat so there is no way to duplicate it with hand winding. And you can only accurately copy it with a computer if you can take real time dial indicator readings off the old machine. And I can tell you that ain't happening if I have anything to say about it.

The real question is why would anyone want the Leesona 102 when it is a big, heavy, noisy machine that leaks oil practically by design? Because it can wind great sounding PAF coils!

[David Schwab]

And you can only accurately copy it with a computer if you can take real time dial indicator readings off the old machine. And I can tell you that ain't happening if I have anything to say about it.

Psssst, everyone meet at Jon's at midnight. Bring the dial indicator...

[JGundry]

Psssst, everyone meet at Jon's at midnight. Bring the dial indicator...

Make sure to bring a video camera. Video the dial indicator and you have 30+ positioning samples per second.

[ShannonH]

There is no such ting a a perfectly wound bobbin with an old winder. The Leesona 102 is not exactly hiccupy. It does some things unique to it but it repeats them with each layer it lays down. That is really what is unique about any of the old machines. The quirks of the machine repeat so there is no way to duplicate it with hand winding.

And that is part of what I was getting at. Maybe hiccupy isn't a perfect word for it. I intend to build a heart cam based traverse after I get done closing my business, and I want to build in some irregularity that is repeatable. Like the man said "cheesy, but not so much it sounds bad." If I tension it with my hand, can I still call it handwound?

Thanks all. great discussion....

[clown_luthier]

And that is part of what I was getting at. Maybe hiccupy isn't a perfect word for it. I intend to build a heart cam based traverse after I get done closing my business, and I want to build in some irregularity that is repeatable. Like the man said "cheesy, but not so much it sounds bad." If I tension it with my hand, can I still call it handwound?

Thanks all. great discussion....

i think winding is not only factor you need to replicate if you want paf, mr. throbak have that luck to own lensona but look at other jobs that all this guys on forum do to replicate pafs; baseplates, bobbins, keepers, slugs, custom made screws, hookup wire, some even use NOS wire for winding, some have custom made magnets...

[JGundry]

i think winding is not only factor you need to replicate if you want paf, mr. throbak have that luck to own lensona but look at other jobs that all this guys on forum do to replicate pafs; baseplates, bobbins, keepers, slugs, custom made screws, hookup wire, some even use NOS wire for winding, some have custom made magnets...

Very true, it is many parts that make up a PAF. I'm taking delivery this week of baseplates that I had tooled up. To get a good replica baseplate you have to get the tooling made. Once I get the baseplates absolutely every part of the PAF assembly will be custom made in the USA to my specs. which are vintage specs. Some parts are even made by old Gibson suppliers.

[clown_luthier]

Very true, it is many parts that make up a PAF. I'm taking delivery this week of baseplates that I had tooled up. To get a good replica baseplate you have to get the tooling made. Once I get the baseplates absolutely every part of the PAF assembly will be custom made in the USA to my specs. which are vintage specs. Some parts are even made by old Gibson suppliers.

hey jon, i will have my baseplates tomorrow here too, also custom made, did you make tooling for folding them too or only punch tool for cutting them?