Epi humbucker- Upgrade or replace?

[rjb]

I'm currently wiring up a FirstAct Garagemaster guitar like a Gibson L-6S with the six position pickup selector, and then I'm going to add series/parallel for each pickup and a varitone. That should get all the tones I could ever use.

I had to look up "Garagemaster"; I must've been asleep during that promotion. So, you don't want to leave the guitar stock? I guess I can see how it could get pretty cumbersome having to haul a VW Jetta "amplifier" on stage....

Actually, your setup seems pretty close to what I had sketched out for the Dot. I was going to install DP3T slide switches below each pup for Ser/Shunt/Par; replace the pickup selector with a 6 position rotary with the same functions as the L-6S, and replace the tone controls with a Varitone and a master tone pot.

Then I stumbled upon the L-6S threads, did some Googling, and found:
* Hey, you can do the same thing with a 3-pole rotary! (My straightforward design used 4 poles).
* In the parallel out-of-phase position, BL inserted a cap in-line with the neck pup to beef up the signal by blocking some lows, thereby eliminating some low-frequency cancellations.
* Some speculated that part of the reason the L-6S never really caught on was that the 6-position selector was difficult to use during live performance.

Then I (very briefly) considered nixing the parallel out-of phase position, and using a 5-position super switch with a Tele control plate. (That would've been lovely...)

Then I found "Deaf Eddie's Gibson ES-333" design- which seems like a pretty sane compromise that uses the stock selector switch and 4 push-pull pots, and requires no new holes in the guitar:
Gibson ES-333
http://www.deaf-eddie.net/drawings/es-333.jpg

Here's what you get:
Neck Position: Neck pup (coils series or shunt or parallel)
Middle Position: Various parallel in-phase combinations
Bridge Position: Bridge pup (coils series or shunt or parallel), various series out-of-phase combinations

Here's what you don't get, and the rationale:
* Parallel out-of phase combinations: Weak sound; series out-of-phase gets the "quack" with less signal loss.
* Parallel in-phase combination of HB + coil shunt: You do get HB + parallel coil combo; parallel is stronger signal than coil shunt and is similar in sound (especially when blended with a HB).
* You can't shunt each of the 4 coils at will (as in some "Jimmy Page" configurations); the coils shunted are chosen to form a humbucking pair.

One could do the Deaf Eddie thing and still have room to install a Varitone in the normal ES-355 position. Then the only thing "missing" would be selectable caps on the tone controls (but, using 1M linear pots, you could still do the "cap on each end" trick)....

Sheesh, to think I only wanted advice on whether to salvage or trash a pair of pickups....

Later,
-rb

The scope of a project will expand to fill the alloted deadline and budget.

- One of Murphy's Law's many corollaries

[fieldwrangler]

I know; that's the thread(s) to which I was referring.
But if I tried to install every possible useful mod, I'd need to build an extension on the guitar!

If and when I build an "outboard" Varitone, I might experiment with an active state-variable filter (replacing the rotary switch with a ganged pot)... but that's another project down the road that I don't even want to discuss right now.

Thanks again,
-rb

Keep in mind that the effect of passive resonance (and damping) devices like the Varitone hanging directly off of the pickups' output can be pretty difficult to replicate with chips, jellybeans & batteries.

However, one advantage of an active outboard box is that folks can use their volume controls normally instead of needing to keep them cranked as is the case with passive outboard boxes.

Bob Palmieri

[rjb]

Keep in mind that the effect of passive resonance (and damping) devices like the Varitone hanging directly off of the pickups' output can be pretty difficult to replicate with chips, jellybeans & batteries.

I agree; if you want to build something that sounds just like a Varitone, build a Varitone. I also realize that active electronics can produce some ugly, unnatural sounds. But it also might be fun to have more control. For instance, does anyone really *want* the amount of cut to decrease with increasing frequency, or is it just something they learn to live with?

I also realize I'm just putzing around & not doing anything new that hasn't been tried at least 40 yrs ago....

-rb

[fieldwrangler]

I agree; if you want to build something that sounds just like a Varitone, build a Varitone. I also realize that active electronics can produce some ugly, unnatural sounds. But it also might be fun to have more control. For instance, does anyone really *want* the amount of cut to decrease with increasing frequency, or is it just something they learn to live with?

I also realize I'm just putzing around & not doing anything new that hasn't been tried at least 40 yrs ago....-rb

Rb -

I must say, however, that I recall really liking the Alembic Strat-type active array with what seemed like an appropriately heavy-handed peak sweeper in the preamp.

Bp

[David Schwab]

I had to look up "Garagemaster"; I must've been asleep during that promotion. So, you don't want to leave the guitar stock? I guess I can see how it could get pretty cumbersome having to haul a VW Jetta "amplifier" on stage....

You can buy them pretty cheap, and they are really nice little guitars, once you change the pickups. The pickups are the worst sounding POS I have ever heard! They have no high end at all. The built in preamp and mid cut/treble boost helps, but the guitar sounds really nice with good pickups.

Actually, your setup seems pretty close to what I had sketched out for the Dot. I was going to install DP3T slide switches below each pup for Ser/Shunt/Par; replace the pickup selector with a 6 position rotary with the same functions as the L-6S, and replace the tone controls with a Varitone and a master tone pot.

Then I stumbled upon the L-6S threads, did some Googling, and found:
* Hey, you can do the same thing with a 3-pole rotary! (My straightforward design used 4 poles).
* In the parallel out-of-phase position, BL inserted a cap in-line with the neck pup to beef up the signal by blocking some lows, thereby eliminating some low-frequency cancellations.
* Some speculated that part of the reason the L-6S never really caught on was that the 6-position selector was difficult to use during live performance.

I agree that some people missed having the toggle for switching to the lead pickup. I've seen the rotary replaced with a toggle. One of the guitarist I play with did the same thing on his three PRS guitars.

What I've done in the past, and plan on doing on this guitar, is to have a regular looking toggle switch, except I'm using a DPDT 3 way switch that you can get from DiMarzio or MEC. So my plan is to have the switch activate the bridge or neck pickups, and then when in the middle, you will get the rotary switch. Because there are redundant positions, I might wire the switch up a little differently.

I did something like this back in the 70's on a Fender Mustang. I had a two way switch that would select the 6-position switch, or the bridge pickup. So you had a preset of sorts.

Then I (very briefly) considered nixing the parallel out-of phase position, and using a 5-position super switch with a Tele control plate. (That would've been lovely...)

I'm contemplating using a 5-way super switch as well. I have both switches, and I'm waiting till I have time to play with the guitar to decide. I will have to make a new pick guard either way.

Then I found "Deaf Eddie's Gibson ES-333" design- which seems like a pretty sane compromise that uses the stock selector switch and 4 push-pull pots, and requires no new holes in the guitar:
Gibson ES-333
http://www.deaf-eddie.net/drawings/es-333.jpg


Here's what you get:
Neck Position: Neck pup (coils series or shunt or parallel)
Middle Position: Various parallel in-phase combinations
Bridge Position: Bridge pup (coils series or shunt or parallel), various series out-of-phase combinations

So how is that not the Jimmy Page wiring?

Here's what you don't get, and the rationale:
* Parallel out-of phase combinations: Weak sound; series out-of-phase gets the "quack" with less signal loss.

Remember the three pickup Les Pauls and SGs? A girlfriend I had once, had a SG deluxe, and hated that bridge and middle out-of-phase tone. You couldn't swap the pickup wires, and they were epoxy encapsulated, so I swapped the neck and middle pickups so she got the bridge and middle in phase, and was much happier.

But out of phase tones can be cool, and you can turn down one pickup to vary the amount of cancelation.

Series out of phase is a cool tone too.

* Parallel in-phase combination of HB + coil shunt: You do get HB + parallel coil combo; parallel is stronger signal than coil shunt and is similar in sound (especially when blended with a HB).
* You can't shunt each of the 4 coils (as in some "Jimmy Page" configurations); the coils shunted are chosen to form a humbucking pair.

Oh I see... (previous question) I dislike humbuckers switch into single coil mode. They sound weak, and hum. I like parallel better.

One could do the Deaf Eddie thing and still have room to install a Varitone in the normal ES-355 position. Then the only thing "missing" would be selectable caps on the tone controls (but, with custom 1M linear push-pull pots, you could still do the "cap on each end" trick)....

Use a rotary switch for the tone control, or use a push pull that switches the inductor out of the Varitone circuit, and now you have 5 tone caps. Use the tone pot to vary the amount. The push pull can change the tone pots function.

Sheesh, to think I only wanted advice on whether to salvage or trash a pair of pickups....

That's how it always begins! My buddy gave me the Garagemaster, and I love playing it, but the tone sucked, so now I have a new project.

[rjb]

Use a rotary switch for the tone control, or use a push pull that switches the inductor out of the Varitone circuit, and now you have 5 tone caps. Use the tone pot to vary the amount. The push pull can change the tone pots function.

I do like the idea, but, but, but... if I do "The Deaf Eddie Thing", I'm locked into using two p-p pot tone controls- because I need the DPDTs for the Deaf Eddie switching. So I can't have another rotary switch without drilling another hole. Now, if I could find a 6-position rotary with p-p DPDT, that would be something!

I might use 1M linear pots for the tone, with a .022uF on one end and a .0047uF on the other (both going to ground) and a stripe of nail polish across the track's midpoint.

Or another trick I read somewhere: Normal tone configuration, but use .022uF in series with .047uF. Then hide an On-Off-On toggle under the pickguard to shunt one, the other, or neither of the caps. The series combination comes out to .015uF- reputedly the magical mystical value EC used to get the original Woman tone....

OK, I think I've had enough.

Seeya,
-rb

[fieldwrangler]

I do like the idea, but, but, but... if I do "The Deaf Eddie Thing", I'm locked into using two p-p pot tone controls- because I need the DPDTs for the Deaf Eddie switching. So I can't have another rotary switch without drilling another hole. Now, if I could find a 6-position rotary with p-p DPDT, that would be something!

I might use 1M linear pots for the tone, with a .022uF on one end and a .0047uF on the other (both going to ground) and a stripe of nail polish across the track's midpoint.

Or another trick I read somewhere: Normal tone configuration, but use .022uF in series with .047uF. Then hide an On-Off-On toggle under the pickguard to shunt one, the other, or neither of the caps. The series combination comes out to .015uF- reputedly the magical mystical value EC used to get the original Woman tone....

OK, I think I've had enough.

Seeya,
-rb

rb -

Internal optimization of passive components is an area of concentrated effort for me. If possible, I set up an RC substitution box and poke around 'till someone really likes their tone control. However, if I can't do this and just want to take a shot, for relatively "normal" pickups .015 really works well for me & others. In single tone/multiple pickup passive systems this optimization for a single pickup can sound less appealing when shunting two pickups in parallel (with the attendant drop in impedance) but, all in all, it's still a surprisingly good choice in many cases.

Bob Palmieri

[rjb]

If possible, I set up an RC substitution box and poke around 'till someone really likes their tone control.

Why, that's just common sense. Um, gee, why didn't I think of it?

OK- I'll wire the harness on stiff card, install the pickups, connect the harness outside the guitar, and have at it.

Duh,
-rb

[rjb]

Sanity Check (Thinking Aloud)

There comes a time in life when a guy's gotta step back and say "WWMD" (What Would Merle Do?) or, depending on his religion, "WWHD" (What Would Hank Do?). I'm not an electric guitarist; I'm an acoustic guitar player who mainly backs up fiddlers, owns some electric guitars, and wants to fool around with some 50s/early 60s country and rockabilly. Did Merle Travis or Hank Garland or even Cliff Gallup or Scotty Moore need a bazillion knobs and switches on their guitars? No, sir, they did not.

All I "need"(want) is some essence of single-coil twang- but, preferably without the "vintage" noise level. The "Deaf Eddie" mod will hopefully get close enough, and throws in out-of phase sounds (that I'll probably never use) for free.

Regarding tone controls: I've never played with a Varitone (which does sound like fun), but doubt I'd actually use it much- other than maybe in the 120 Hz position, to lighten up "very warm, wound hot for modern styles" pickups when in HB mode.

So, maybe, for me, this would be a better configuration:
* (1) Master "Normal" tone control
* (1) Master "Air" control = A cap in-line with the pickups, shunted by a 1M linear pot (like an adjustable version of the DeArmond Rhythm Chief's "rhythm" switch). The idea would be to block lows, thinning the sound - and maybe "opening up some space" for a cleaner mix when playing with bass and/or piano.

Comments?

Thanks,
-rb

PS: Here's a present.
Check out the tasteful backup by Chet Atkins before he became "Chet Atkins"- on a Duo Jet, no less.
YouTube - Chet Atkins & Anita Carter - Makin' Believe

[fieldwrangler]

All I "need"(want) is some essence of single-coil twang- but, preferably without the "vintage" noise level.[/url]

When I'm going for this sort of thing I just wire the coils of hott-ish 'buckers in parallel.

Bob Palmieri

[rjb]

When I'm going for this sort of thing I just wire the coils of hott-ish 'buckers in parallel.

Thanks, Bob. I think it has become evident that instead of speculating about tone controls, I need to get the pickups in hand, install them in the guitar, and experiment to see what sounds good.

Thanks,
-rb

[David Schwab]

There comes a time in life when a guy's gotta step back and say "WWMD" (What Would Merle Do?) or, depending on his religion, "WWHD" (What Would Hank Do?). I'm not an electric guitarist; I'm an acoustic guitar player who mainly backs up fiddlers, owns some electric guitars, and wants to fool around with some 50s/early 60s country and rockabilly. Did Merle Travis or Hank Garland or even Cliff Gallup or Scotty Moore need a bazillion knobs and switches on their guitars? No, sir, they did not.

Right, but they were using one tone most of the time. That doesn't always work with modern music, or if you play in a cover band.

All I "need"(want) is some essence of single-coil twang- but, preferably without the "vintage" noise level. The "Deaf Eddie" mod will hopefully get close enough, and throws in out-of phase sounds (that I'll probably never use) for free.

Twang comes from the Fender's longer scale length, and not the pickups. If you stick humbuckers on a Tele, it's still twangy, just not as bright. Sticking a Tele pickup on a Les Paul wont get you any twang, but you will get a lot of bite.

Regarding tone controls: I've never played with a Varitone (which does sound like fun), but doubt I'd actually use it much- other than maybe in the 120 Hz position, to lighten up "very warm, wound hot for modern styles" pickups when in HB mode.

Of you would be surprised. I used it all the time. You can get some cool notchy clean tones, and on the last position it made my humbuckers sound very much like single coils. Very bright and glassy. It's a midrange cut, and midrange is where your tones come from.

[rjb]

Right, but they were using one tone most of the time. That doesn't always work with modern music, or if you play in a cover band.

I play in "contra" (kinda like New England's answer to square dance) bands, not "cover" bands. I did get a pit band gig once 'cause they needed someone who could fake both Jimmy Smith and Eddy Peabody. But I used different instruments for that.

Twang comes from the Fender's longer scale length, and not the pickups. If you stick humbuckers on a Tele, it's still twangy, just not as bright. Sticking a Tele pickup on a Les Paul wont get you any twang, but you will get a lot of bite.

I must be using the wrong technical term; I don't mean like Luther Perkins Esquire twang. The folks I'm thinking of used Gibson (or shorter) scale and either DeArmond single coils or P90s. What's the name for Hank Garland's tone on "Sugar Foot Rag"?

...on the last position it made my humbuckers sound very much like single coils. Very bright and glassy.

Which is the "last" position? I thought you said in another thread that the 120Hz position produced a S.C.-like sound? (Probably misremembering)

It's a midrange cut, and midrange is where your tones come from.

If your tone comes from the midrange, and it's a midrange cut, then it's really a tone cut, right?

So, would my proposed master "Tone" and "Air" controls work as expected? Wait a minute, I already decided to just try it and see what happens....

Thanks,
-rb

[rjb]

...If you stick humbuckers on a Tele, it's still twangy, just not as bright. Sticking a Tele pickup on a Les Paul wont get you any twang, but you will get a lot of bite.

I've also noticed that the P90 in Merle Travis' Super 400 sounds nothing like the P90 in Lesley West's LP Jr. And none of Ted Nugent's Byrdlands sound like Hank Garland's Byrdland. Uh, what were we talking about?

[David Schwab]

I've also noticed that the P90 in Merle Travis' Super 400 sounds nothing like the P90 in Lesley West's LP Jr. And none of Ted Nugent's Byrdlands sound like Hank Garland's Byrdland. Uh, what were we talking about?

Guitars sound like they do, and the pickups amplify them. If your guitar is twangy, the pickups will be twangy.

And then it's also in the hands of the player.

There's a story that Eddy Van Halen told once in Guitar Player mag. They were playing with Ted Nugent and he asked to try out Eddy's guitar and amp figuring that the tone was in the rig. Eddy said he ended up sounding just like Ted Nugent, even though it was Eddy's guitar and amp. Nugent was dumbfounded.