OTPG -what is that?

[big_teee]

Let me put in my two cents.
I have never heard a Real PAF.
However I have heard some great pickups.
In the beginning, I thought the original PAFs were a hit or miss proposition.
Some great, some not so great. Some with different amounts of wire. some even in turns some not so even.
Some with A4s, A5s, and eventuall A2s.
Seymour Duncan has many different models that are supposed to variations of PAFs.
He has the Seth Lover Model that is supposed to be made exactly like Seth Lovers originals, down to the maple spacers, wound on the original gibson machines.
Duncan has the Antiquity models that are supposed to hand made models with aged covers.
So I compare how good can good be. Fine is Fine, wheter it cost $60 or $600.
Also I would like to add that there is any number of fine PAF pickup builders on this forum. Unfortunately they all want more money than I want to pay, so that's why I attempt to build my own.
So my recommendation is everyone enjoy the discussion and not get so personal about things!
Life is to short.
Terry

[nhall]

Yeah...its all cool (I think!?)...

But it's felt like trying to have a conversation at a party where everyone is blind drunk!!

for a start ... just remember where this journey began ...I just got p'd that as soon as a newbie entered the arena asking if anyone new the score about a fellow builder who he'd heard good reports on, and up runs a guy waving his arms shouting, and in less than subtle fashion tells him to save his money as the products no good ....well, OTPG doesn't hang here (but a few others who know him do), and so how'd you all feel if someone put down one of your mates gear in such a way?

Also, Dave ...you last response was a bit like 'chinese whispers' ...why on earth did you assume I was including you in the 'cerial dissers' comment?...I certainly wasn't .. the 'disser's just refered to those who've made a bit of a habit in the past of critisizing other & their work ... 'pack hounds' clearly all those who jumped in to add an extra boot-in based on the totally mis-informed $600/650 or whatever other silly amount was being suggested (and possibly a mild annoyance that someone won't come on here and shop a mate / reveal answers to 'mysteries' they personally wanted to dig out).. surely not unreasonable ... but the more the kids in the playground jump onto the pile of fighting individuals .. you're never quite sure whether to get annoyed yourself or just sit there laughing at the stupidity of it all...

I'm sure you are quite right David, by saying that a lot of peole here make very good products and as such should all be respected .. and so should anyone else making a similar product who aren't present to defend themselves be respected .. we've seen too many 'spats' on this forum started by personal attacks ... as others have said above, lets just all agree not to attack each other (incl. those not present on this forum) ... unless you actually have evidence someone is really trying to rip you off (i.e..they personally are asking silly money for a product you've actually had in your hand and both heard and seen) then its just plain wrong to attack them... let the outside world be the judge (the consumers / reviewers)... and lets just get back to discussing pickups , and having the odd laugh here and there...no harm policy...really we should have a no-attack agreement on others & their work ... any questions on an individuals output tabled here should either be directed back to them, or they should maybe be given pointer to assist in judging aspects of the particular product, and pointed in the direction of reviewers / other more appropriate forums where 'judgements' is its general purpose..
Peace / Love / Humanity / Respect ... and if you want to go that extra mile ... charity & vegetarianism!!!!

[David Schwab]

Yeah...its all cool (I think!?)...

But it's felt like trying to have a conversation at a party where everyone is blind drunk!!

No, actually someone asked a question about our opinion or knowledge of these pickups. One of the regulars here said the mojo is not worth $600. he said nothing about the quality of the pickups, because frankly you and Sam Lee Guy are the only two with any experience with them. Sam knows the guy and pointed out that there are many good replicas now. Sam even said call Spence.

You on the other hand sounded like marketing. Sure as:

As you asked specifically about OTPG, I can confirm that he is (to my knowledge) probably 'the' most knowledgeable person on the pickups you refer to..

Which pickups? His own pickups, or PAFs? Now unless you know some of the fine builders here, like Jason Lollar, Spence and Dave (Possum.. we have many Daves), JGundry, and probably others who have spent many years and a lot of money studying PAFs, going as far as having the steel analyzed and magnets reproduced, you can't make that assessment. Most of the people here don't know who OTPG is. If he really knows as much as you say, he's keeping it a secret. he doesn't even have a web site I could find.

No one dissed his work. Some criticized $600 for a set of repro pickups.

I think the general consensus at this forum to the original question is: "we don't know much about them."

[Rick Turner]

Maybe Seymour Duncan and Kevin Beller at Duncan have just been around too long to still be "hip", but from my perspective, between the two of them, they know more about pickups, the materials that go into pickups, and how to reproduce vintage pickups than anybody else I know. Perhaps they've been too successful to still be considered boutique, but all you have to do is go visit the Duncan operation in Santa Barbara to know that whether it's high production standard stuff or literally hand made hand wound custom shop work, they're hard to beat. You also get zero bullshit from them, and I think Seymour is perhaps almost single-handedly responsible for the whole current aftermarket pickup business.

Disclaimer: Yes, I am the "T" in Ducan Turner Acoustic Research...otherwise known as D-TAR...

[David Schwab]

I agree about Duncan and Beller. I met Kevin Beller back in '95 at the A.S.I.A. Symposium. I thought he was a nice guy and from the little we talked certainly knew his stuff. Of course years later I realized how many pickup's he's designed at Duncan. They were very laid back and said "yeah, we'll build anything you want... even one off pickups". I thought that was cool.

[JGundry]

Bottom line, all you 'pack-hounds' and 'cereal disser's'...unless you've actually had a product ... don't start criticizing what you don't know.....and, unless you've got your facts right first, don't presume .... you're all way off on the price ... way off on the person behind them who simply would rather be totally left alone ... and way off on what goes into the product.....

END OF.....

Still want some!? .. I'll help for no return if you are serious and cut this 'gem' some slack..OK.

Actually I have a pair of OTP pickups in my shop that a customer sent me. They look very vintage correct. To the untrained eye they might be mistaken for real PAF's. To the trained eye things like bobbin edge radius, brass screws and a few other details deviate from the actual vintage article. But the truth is I am probably only catching these details because I also spent many, many hours having my own parts made. They are certainly masterfully aged. How do they sound? Well I put them in my test guitar and they sound great. Are they worth $600.00? IMO yes and frankly I think mine are also as well as a few other top shelf PAF makers. I think that considering the price disparity between vintage PAF's and a good reproduction that the few people that are actually going into the detail of making their own bobbins, baseplates, slugs, screws... to make a boutique PAF, should charge more.

I like the OTP pickups in my shop but the only reason I have them in my shop is the guy who bought them wants me to rewind them. I actually told him I was reluctant to do it because I thought they certainly fell within the range of a good PAF tonally. But the customer has bought several sets of my pickups and and loves them and he likes the entire idea of the OTP pickups being rewound on the vintage Gibson and Gibson correct winders I have. I really only do vintage repair rewinds but this guy is a good customer so I will do it.

The truth is there is enough of a variety of PAF tones to shoot for that the few makers that are making a primo PAF replica will not soon be short of customers even at $600.00. OTP PAF's sound like his version of a PAF and ThroBak PAF's sound like my versions of what I like in a PAF, everyone puts their tonal stamp on what they make.

As far as who the OTP guy is I could be wrong but I think there may actually be two guys making them on and off. Both of them are top flight luthiers and their work is meticulous. Or it may just be one guy.

[LtKojak]

But it's felt like trying to have a conversation at a party where everyone is blind drunk.

It was more like everybody was sober and it was You the "blind drunk"...

Yes, I AM a petty person sometimes...

[Peter Naglitsch]

something here reminds me of a saying involving adog, barking, and a tree...but perhaps you need to be english to get that one..

Firstly; You don’t need to be a native Englishman with a bowler hat and a bulldog on a leash to understand that. It’s not even subtle.

Secondly; I’m still not convinced. Your posts in this particular thread have made more people than me think that you are overly protective and pretty close to pushing this guys products, even thou you keep saying that he don’t want to sell the pickups… more or less something like that. If you have been around the net a few years you start to get allergic to people sneaking around trying to push their own or a friend’s products thru different forums. If that’s not the case I apologize, but still ask you to take a step back, re-read your posts and examine them to see if you can find out what have caused this flame war (like your second post). Pepe is a nice guy and he answered the OPs question in both English and Danish (more or less the exact same words, why the innuendo about him saying something rude in Danish? I can read and speak Danish so I can verify he was not saying anything else that he did in English) saying that 600$ was in his opinion too much for any set of pickups. That was all he did. And you started to attack him and defending OTPG In pretty strong terms. That made more people than me thinks that you were associated to this guy in one way or another.

[LtKojak]

If you want to pay $600 for some PAF replicas go for it! I think those that make the purchase will convince themselves that they are the best PAF replicas based on what they paid. It's an effective marketing stragedy

That's exactly it. The "blueslawyer" market. Guitar snobs with more money to burn than ears and/or common sense.

I love when these characters approach some jam sessions bragging with their $ 6,000.00 CS Gibson instruments and can't actually hear the difference between a Major and a 7th chord!

I've got one of these complaint about me playing "LA Bamba", as he said "the way I've played it didn't sound like BLUES at all". And no, I'm NOT joking!

[madialex]

Let me clarify. All I am saying is, OTPG my be a respectable guy and great pickup maker but..... It's kinda like just giving your kids to the next stranger that walks by to babysit them.

It sounds like a few people here are pushing his product. This is not the place! If I want a pickup I'll make it myself thank you. Did you not notice this is the pickup makers forum??

Yes Bobbo is saying he is the only US dealer and I always wondered about that. You send him money, then you wait for pickups?? I want to interact with the builder, not some middle man that may or may not be on the up and up.

[StarryNight]

please, try to respect every guitar player's personal choice in what they appreciate. Realize that the customer demographic for relic'd PAF clones are looking for more than just a custom wound aftermarket pickup to put in their guitar. Think of it this way: The beauty of a vintage guitar can be intoxicating for some people (look at all the vintage guitar wall calendars out there). When you see and hold an old guitar there is a feeling of reverence. Part of the beauty of a guitar can be the age of it, the patina, the smell of the case (I love old guitar case smells), the crazing of the nitro etc. Now supply and demand tells us that if there are people willing to pay $600 for a set of acurate PAF clones, it means that A: there is not a great supply of acurate PAF reproductions and B: the monitary value is justified by those that appreciate this kind of work because it fits their exact criteria for what they're looking for.

I do however have some serious concerns about the way OTPG conducts his business (to use the term loosely). When making a large purchase of hundreds of dollars from someone in a different country who chooses to remain anonymous with no obvious way of contact, it does not instill a sense of confidence that I'm dealing with an entity that can be trusted or who is reliable. The 'friends' who pipe up on this thread and vouch for this man's character (and virtually praising the ground that he walks on) only make it worse I'm afraid. This is no way to run a business.

It reminds me of a book "the piano shop on the left bank".

[Sam Lee Guy]

You have to understand that OTPG not trying to run business making pickup. You say this no way to make business but that not what he want. He make PAF clone for 25 years and not need new customer. This pickupmaker forum, that why I say to Madialex, make your own! Most maker here want to sell more and not understand that this guy not want to sell more but many many people want to buy more.

[Spence]

Been away from civilization for a week only to come back here and find civilization's dying the death.
Well, it looks like I will have to try and set a few things right here. OTPG ( a name I coined for him ) only makes fine replica pickups so that people can have something that looks and sounds right. They are not designed to fool experts as fraud isn't the name of the game. For that reason people like Jon Gundry are able to point out the giveaway signs that they're not real.
It never ceases to amaze me that only 6 pairs of these have been sold through Bobbo, yet everyone and his dog has a set. Not only that, they are all awaiting a rewind by Jon Gundry or Will Boggs or Uncle Tom Cobbly and all.
Next, they are not $600 a set unless you want them that badly.
Sam Lee Guy told you where you can get them direct. But be warned, no Leesonas were used in the making of these pickups.....

[nhall]

Sam Lee Doomed!

Oh-no Sam ... I am now worried for you that there is a time bomb ticking... you should never have come back, and never have entered this arena!!
Since you traded those two noodlebuckers last year to your saki supplier, he is bound to give rave reviews ... probably many times, as his memory is not that good on account of his habbit ...this will of course intrigue many desperately in search of the infinite sustain which they are said to produce..!
Of course this will cause resentments, as no living person has yet to achieve such perfection .. the zen ..the dicipline ..the strict adherance to the ancient art of eky-thump ..
How will this end you ask... hmm let me pause for reflection ... ther will be those seeking wisdom who will approach the oracle ... they will look to those who profess great wisdom ... they will seak out the ones who tell to all that they have learnt all there is to know, and banded together to share their knowledge, unaware of of course of their secret jelousies, their boasts of their greater acheivements, their secret worshing at other alters, and their witholding of vital secrets ... , so when the wisdom seeker does ask of the great ones who is this with the noodlebucker? ... why does he want so much saki for it? .. why is he such a great man? .. and why can I not find him?....how will they reply??
Ahhh .. well the less wise man will answer first to impress his bretheren with his apparent great knowledge on such a secretive subject...in code he will say to the wisdom seeker " save your money my freind, his noodlebucker has no soul" ... (in his words it is no good!! .. of course on what grounds he professes such knowledge will not be challenged) ... others bretheren who seek to remind the wise ones of previous battles wich came to pass due to such a put-down, will immediately be attacked also, because the other wise men fear he is only there to serve himself, and amonst themselves they will vow to all believe the much believed powerfull 'conspiracy makers' ...
Despite the fact that the story about the Noodlebucker will be much debated and talked about in venerable tones in all the sushi bars around the world, the wise ones will simply continue to repeat the falsehoods which they would rather believe, than ever concieve that such a great sustainer could ever be built ... after all, their efforts will all have been much debated over those years, and some would out of principle not believe such a Noodlebucker would have existed for so many years right under their very noses, and others only knowing of their own resources would not understand how the ancient arts would enable the building of such a noodlebucker to do his work, and the rest will stick together in the safety amonst their own bretheren for warmth and comfort...
What will become of the Noodlebucker then? ...Sam .... You much at all costs retreive these priceless artifacts from your Saki man ... otherwise a great storm could threaten us all!!

[big_teee]

Oh-no Sam ... I am now worried for you that there is a time bomb ticking... you should never have come back, and never have entered this arena!!
Since you traded those two noodlebuckers last year to your saki supplier, he is bound to give rave reviews ... probably many times, as his memory is not that good on account of his habbit ...this will of course intrigue many desperately in search of the infinite sustain which they are said to produce..!
Of course this will cause resentments, as no living person has yet to achieve such perfection .. the zen ..the dicipline ..the strict adherance to the ancient art of eky-thump ..
How will this end you ask... hmm let me pause for reflection ... ther will be those seeking wisdom who will approach the oracle ... they will look to those who profess great wisdom ... they will seak out the ones who tell to all that they have learnt all there is to know, and banded together to share their knowledge, unaware of of course of their secret jelousies, their boasts of their greater acheivements, their secret worshing at other alters, and their witholding of vital secrets ... , so when the wisdom seeker does ask of the great ones who is this with the noodlebucker? ... why does he want so much saki for it? .. why is he such a great man? .. and why can I not find him?....how will they reply??
Ahhh .. well the less wise man will answer first to impress his bretheren with his apparent great knowledge on such a secretive subject...in code he will say to the wisdom seeker " save your money my freind, his noodlebucker has no soul" ... (in his words it is no good!! .. of course on what grounds he professes such knowledge will not be challenged) ... others bretheren who seek to remind the wise ones of previous battles wich came to pass due to such a put-down, will immediately be attacked also, because the other wise men fear he is only there to serve himself, and amonst themselves they will vow to all believe the much believed powerfull 'conspiracy makers' ...
Despite the fact that the story about the Noodlebucker will be much debated and talked about in venerable tones in all the sushi bars around the world, the wise ones will simply continue to repeat the falsehoods which they would rather believe, than ever concieve that such a great sustainer could ever be built ... after all, their efforts will all have been much debated over those years, and some would out of principle not believe such a Noodlebucker would have existed for so many years right under their very noses, and others only knowing of their own resources would not understand how the ancient arts would enable the building of such a noodlebucker to do his work, and the rest will stick together in the safety amonst their own bretheren for warmth and comfort...
What will become of the Noodlebucker then? ...Sam .... You much at all costs retreive these priceless artifacts from your Saki man ... otherwise a great storm could threaten us all!!

Mr nhall:
I say this in all sencerity.
That's quite the master Piece.
You must have done journalism or lots of study-hall in High school.
How do think-up all that stuff?
I don't know what Eky-Thump is, but I sure want it in my next set of Noodle-Buckers!
Hang in there,
Terry