OTPG -what is that?

[Sam Lee Guy]

Well, Sam, I hope you're being well rewarded for flogging these pickups.

Whether or not forgeries have been done in the past, and whether or not you think "second hand" anything should be worth a lot, the unethical and sometimes flat out illegal forgery business is just bullshit.

Also, George Gruhn did not invent the vintage business anymore than Sotheby's invented the old masters art market or the antique furniture market or Hennings invented the vintage automobile collecting market. Sure, George was there, sure he wrote a lot for Guitar Player, but there was no payout to GP by George. Quite the reverse, in fact. George gets paid to write articles. I've written and been a columnist for Guitar Player and Bass Player since 1972; I know what goes on in the magazine biz.

Your assumptions are completely wrong, and I hope your therapist is getting well paid, because that is who you should be ranting towards, not on a public forum which comes dangerously close to slander.

[salvarsan]

Immoderation in all things

If somebody posts glowing accolades and appeals to mysticism (viz., hype+cachet) about a ghastly expensive pickup in this forum, they deserve all the obloquy... (cof!) shit heaped upon them. It shouldn't need to be said that a forum populated by builders and sympathetic laity (like me) is interested in the demystification and cachet eradication of guitar pickups. Around here, Mojo is a parts vendor, not an inherent quality.

Personally, I think that anyone who pays $600 for a distressed PAF replica needs their head examined by a proctologist.

wrt forgery: the Seth Lover's humbucker patent (2896491) expired in June 1975, 20 years after the date of earliest filing. If PAF replica builders don't represent and sell the pickup as a Gibson original, there is neither fraud nor forgery. To accuse the PAF-style pickup builders of forgery, then, is libelous.

If libel vexes enough of the builders here, I'm sure that the moderator can see fit to ban and expunge the perpetrator.

Sincerely,
the Ex-Immoderator

[Rick Turner]

Well, EXCUUUUUUSE ME!

Note that I did not libel anyone by name...

And it's when one slaps something like a fake PAF label on a "clone" that I think it crosses the line.

But I do think there's an incredible amount of BS surrounding the clone biz...especially when you get to the whole "hand wound" stuff. That's like being proud of the fact that you can't duplicate your results...

I also think that there are a lot of folks listening with their eyes and hearts, not ears and minds. There's no one easier to fool than yourself re. the "qualities" of whatever it is that you're making. And with enough blather to your "customers"...or publicity flacks...you can easily convince anyone that one pickup...or anything else...is the Holy Grail.

Look, I don't doubt that the audio quality of many of the PAF clones is very good. But there are no real secrets in this field when you get to, say, the top five pickup companies/winders. Everyone knows everything they need to know to make top quality clone pickups that are well within the tolerance range of what Gibson was doing in 1957 and '58. I dare say there's probably more difference among genuine Gibson PAFs than there is with anyone's clones. So this "this one is the best" stuff is pure psychology.

And having seen a few forgeries of Gibson, Fender, Rickenbacker, and Martin guitars, I just find the obsession with copying the look a bit too distasteful. You can claim that there is not intent to deceive, but I think that is very disingenuous.

I'll say no more; I think my distaste for forgeries is plain enough.

There's plenty of new work to be done in this field by those creative enough to do it. For those whose creativity stops at copying, I say good luck to you, and I hope no naive customers get taken in by your work.

[David Schwab]

Your assumptions are completely wrong, and I hope your therapist is getting well paid, because that is who you should be ranting towards, not on a public forum which comes dangerously close to slander.

Sam, I honestly don't see where he was being slanderous. He only said perfect copies also make perfect forgeries, not that OTPG, or you, is a forger.

And I think your therapist comment was attacking, while Rick was making generalizations about the vintage market.

Personally I also find the exact copies distasteful, and that includes Gibson putting PAF stickers on new pickups. They aren't, and it's just as tacky as that Hendrix "Strat" they had planned.

It's all based on making money off this vintage fad.

[David Schwab]

If libel vexes enough of the builders here, I'm sure that the moderator can see fit to ban and expunge the perpetrator.

My powers are limited to warnings and being able to edit posts and lock threads. I'm not sure how it worked when you were the mod, but I'll gladly change that password back if you care to join in on the fun.

So everyone behave! It's OK to disagree, that's part of life.

[salvarsan]

My powers are limited to warnings and being able to edit posts and lock threads.

Go into the membership list as moderator.
You can remove spammers and undesirables with, ahem, moderate effort.

I'm not sure how it worked when you were the mod, but I'll gladly change that password back if you care to join in on the fun.

No thanks.
You spend enough time here to be good at it.
I may check in only weekly anymore, and rarely say anything.
Possum would consider that as being a good moderator ... in my particular case.

-drh

[Spence]

Most people can't afford a genuine vintage guitar. So there will always be a market for replicas and that extends to the hardware too. Why would anyone have an issue with that?
But here's the key; I don't want to spend my hard earned cash on a half arsed replica if I can get better. The customer expects.
It doesn't matter if the customer is a full-on out-there player or a bedroom player. their money is worth the same and they deserve value for money.
Even the best PAF replica makers will make sure that there are some details which will give them away as not genuine. This is because we are not fraudsters. How do you think we would feel to find that somethng we made a small profit on was changing hands for thousands with the third party doing nothing other than saying they're genuine?
As for putting the name all over the pickup, it's a lovely idea if your customer base are label freaks. Next time you're looking at jeans in Costco and you see the difference in price between Levis and their own brand, ask yourself how much of a label freak you are.
What I really don't want in my cheapo '59 replica is a set of exposed bobbin double-blade super bastardo bugger buckers with the maker's name all over the bobbins. I want them to look and sound right.
For the Euro winders here, when Mika Hakkinen's house burned down and all his F1 cups/trophies melted, he didn't have replicas made from yoghurt pots.

[JGundry]

How many people here have a violin in the attic that says Stradivarius? Violin making was a cottage industry for years and so is pickup making at this point. Everyone that wants to wind pickups is doing it. There are so many people offering a pickup with a PAF sticker that it is a meaningless mark at this point just as the Stradivarius sticker in your violin in the attic is. Honestly outrage about a PAF sticker is self richeous chest thumping at this point. Anyone paying vintage prices for guitar gear has a responsibility to authenticate what they are buying. That is what experts are for.

From a purely practical standpoint as a maker I don't put a PAF sticker on my pickups because I want people to know who made the pickup so they can buy more if they want. Frankly I think I am offering one of the most accurately executed PAF replicas on the market. But IMO not putting my brand on them would be foolish from a marketing standpoint. So no PAF sticker on my stuff.

[David Schwab]

Go into the membership list as moderator.
You can remove spammers and undesirables with, ahem, moderate effort.

Ah! I had no idea how that worked... thanks.

[David Schwab]

Most people can't afford a genuine vintage guitar. So there will always be a market for replicas and that extends to the hardware too. Why would anyone have an issue with that?

That's the thing.. you used to be able to afford one, and you would still be able to afford one if they weren't turned into a commodity. And the vintage craze and collector's market is responsible for that, IMHO. And the craze as much about old guitars being worth $20,000 as it is their tone and playability. People want to get lucky and find that old guitar up in the attic, and they lust for things they can't have. If people were only interested in the tone of a PAF, they wouldn't care what it looked like. That has nothing to do with the sound, and is more about fantasy.

The issue I have is that these fake vintage guitars are always really beat up. Sure, some vintage guitars will look that way, but many don't. My '72 Mustang is in very good shape, except for the celluloid pickguard warping. it's not rusty and tarnished. It looks played, but it doesn't have all the paint worn off. My '59 Jazzmaster is also not rusty.

Back when I got it, it was a used guitar. They didn't cost that much. The beat up ones cost almost nothing. I got a Mosrite Ventures bass for $50 because the butt head that had it sanded all the paint off and painted it with red latex house paint!

When the vintage guitar market got going, all the good guitars were gone. All that was left was the crap. Then the crap became valuable. Like that Tele body on eBay.

Then somebody at one of the major guitar makers got the bright idea that they could take their scratch and dent seconds, something that normally ended up in the trash, scratch and dent it further, and then charge more money for it! No one would have bought a real vintage guitar like that 30 years ago.

And what's the motivation for wanting an old guitar? Better quality? Mojo? Or just because it's worth something? These days you see people worried about the resale value of brand new Squiers! It's that greed mentality.

Now wanting a funky old looking guitar is one thing, but getting all bent out of shape about some unseen thing, like the screws on the bottom of a PAF copy is really getting out of hand. It's not a PAF and all the wishing wont make it one. It might sound like a PAF. It might even sound better. But people are getting deluded in nonsense.

Bottom line is fake vintage guitars and pickups are not vintage. And 50 years from now they will look like garbage.

[JGundry]

Vintage instruments have always sold for premium prices. Makers were aging new violins in the 1800's to make them look old because people wanted the old violins. Now some of those aged violins are worth a ton as great copies. Vintage electric guitars now have museum piece status. It has to do with scarcity and the players these guitars popular. Since these have vintage status the buyer needs to be educated before they buy. Anyone fooled by a PAF sticker has not done their homework.

[RedHouse]

...when one slaps something like a fake PAF label on a "clone" that I think it crosses the line...

I tend to agree with that notion, though I don't want to upset those amoung us that specialize in PAF's.

IMHO, the whole visual minutia, the sticker thing, the square/round hole thing, the bobbin colors, etc seems overkill. If it indeed sounds like a PAF then your name should be on it, sans fake PAF stickers, to distinguish it from the originals.

...Anyone fooled by a PAF sticker has not done their homework...

Musicians doing homework? most musicians shun homework, that's why they became musicians right?
(all in jest)

....When the vintage guitar market got going, all the good guitars were gone. All that was left was the crap. Then the crap became valuable. Like that Tele body on eBay.

Then somebody at one of the major guitar makers got the bright idea that they could take their scratch and dent seconds, something that normally ended up in the trash, scratch and dent it further, and then charge more money for it! No one would have bought a real vintage guitar like that 30 years ago.

And what's the motivation for wanting an old guitar? Better quality? Mojo? Or just because it's worth something? These days you see people worried about the resale value of brand new Squiers! It's that greed mentality.

Now wanting a funky old looking guitar is one thing, but getting all bent out of shape about some unseen thing, like the screws on the bottom of a PAF copy is really getting out of hand. It's not a PAF and all the wishing wont make it one. It might sound like a PAF. It might even sound better. But people are getting deluded in nonsense.

Bottom line is fake vintage guitars and pickups are not vintage. And 50 years from now they will look like garbage.

Just the facts ma'am, just the facts, that's him, Sgt. Schwab, workin' the early watch out of the Bunko Squad.....Duuuun Da Dun Dun.

Seems the greed thing isn't just guitars though, for instance I know a guy with a young son that said this one day when I gave the kid a scale model John Force funny car, they come already put together and as the boy was opening it up to play with it his dad says to him "you better not open it son, that will be worth a lot of money some day on eBay". What a buzz-kill.

[big_teee]

Just the facts ma'am, just the facts, that's him, Sgt. Schwab, workin' the early watch out of the Bunko Squad.....Duuuun Da Dun Dun.

I like that.
I about lost my cereal when I read that.
Terry

[David Schwab]

IMHO, the whole visual minutia, the sticker thing, the square/round hole thing, the bobbin colors, etc seems overkill. If it indeed sounds like a PAF then your name should be on it, sans fake PAF stickers, to distinguish it from the originals.

Right, it comes down to worshipping this minutia which has nothing at all to do with the sound. I understand the whole quest for wanting to make them with the same materials and all for the tone, if that's the tone you want. The rest is packaging.

And that makes me wonder, if you have a "cheapo '59 replica" and then put some real looking PAF clones, do you have to dress a certain way? Do people buy this stuff and then pose in the mirror and pretend they are Duane Allman or Jimmy Page with their make believe vintage guitar? Is it musical cosplay?

I think if I heard a guitar with a "set of exposed bobbin double-blade super bastardo bugger buckers" and they sounded like nice PAFs or whatever, that would be cooler.

[Spence]

Right, it comes down to worshipping this minutia which has nothing at all to do with the sound. I understand the whole quest for wanting to make them with the same materials and all for the tone, if that's the tone you want. The rest is packaging.

And that makes me wonder, if you have a "cheapo '59 replica" and then put some real looking PAF clones, do you have to dress a certain way? Do people buy this stuff and then pose in the mirror and pretend they are Duane Allman or Jimmy Page with their make believe vintage guitar? Is it musical cosplay?

I think if I heard a guitar with a "set of exposed bobbin double-blade super bastardo bugger buckers" and they sounded like nice PAFs or whatever, that would be cooler.

Of course you have to dress the part. I'm currently wearing my Mick Ronson outfit and striding around the kitchen singing into a replica EV 664 variable D microphone while the wife does the cooking and chores dressed as Marylyn Monroe in a replica outfit.
Later on we're gonna go cruising in my AC Cobra replica....you know, the one made entirely from Chey Metro parts. Looks the dogs bollocks!