Pickup mounting holes - threads

[David Schwab]

Personally I long for the singing leads he got from the Les Paul Custom.

You know how he got that tone? He ran the guitar though a portable tape recorder to use it as a distortion pedal. I used to do the same thing with a portable cassette recorder when I was a teen. You don't need a Les Paul to get that tone if you have the right distortion device. He did that because he was playing with his fingers and couldn't get the typical lead tones.

In a '77 Guitar Player interview he said:

What other equipment do you have?

For amplifiers I used to use HiWatts, but they all of a sudden somehow became real dirty-sounding. So I got Marshall 100watts, and they seem to have a lot of bite. I use these tape recorder guts for fuzz. When I got out of Fritz and started doing lead, I bought a Sony 630 tape recorder deck for demo tapes. Then I got an Ampeg 4-track and started using the Sony 2-track for slap echo and effects like that with the preamp output of the deck into an amp. It's just an amazing fuzz device. Since then I've taken the guts out of the preamp and put them in a little box, and that's what I use both onstage and in the studio. I also use a Roland Space Echo and a Cry Baby wahwah sometimes. My strings are Ernie Ball Regular Slinky, whatever set has an .010 on the top and a .046 or something on the bottom.

And he did use the Strat in the studio:

What guitars do you own?

Onstage I play a [stock] Les Paul Custom, one of those twentieth anniversary models. Before I joined the band I'd been playing a Stratocaster (which I love dearly), but for some reason it didn't sound quite full enough 'live.' I still use a Stratocaster more in the studio than the Gibson, but the Les Paul seems to be a very good, basic, solid stage guitar with a lot of output and fullness. I'm really happy with it. I keep a Strat tuned to open D onstage for "Over My Head." And Rick Turner from Alembic [70 St. Maty's, San Francisco, CA 94112] put his little Stratoblaster in it. For "Landslide" my acoustic is an Ovation onstage, although I used a Martin D-18 on the recording. The Ovation's got a built-in pickup; it's great. It doesn't really sound like an acoustic guitar, but it works so much better 'live' than to mike a real acoustic.

Source is The Blue Letter Archives

Richie Blackmore did the same thing.

Guitar Player September 1978

I like a little bit of distortion which is controlled through my tape recorder. I built my own tape recorder. Well, I didn't build it, but I modified it from a regular tape recorder to an echo unit. It also preamps and boosts the signal going to the amp. If I want a fuzzy effect, I just run up the ouput stage of the tape recorder.

"Can you be more specific as to how it works?

I just keep it on "Record" so it records, and it's like a continual echo because I couldn't get that echo with any echo machine. A continual boom, boom, boom, repeat. Most echo machines are awful: it's like you're in a hallway. The tape recorder doesn't interfere with the note you're playing.

"What type of tape recorder is it?

I don't really know. I tried using a Revox, and it didn't work. I'd really be in trouble if somebody stole my recorder. I've been using it for the last four or five years.

"How exactly is it hooked up?

There's a cord from the guitar into the tape recorder input, and the output stage just goes back to the amp. I can control the volume, too. I can have it loud with no distortion or vice versa. I have a little footpedal that I can stop and start it with. A lot of people think when they see the tape going the solos are recorded. Lots of people ask that. Some guy shouted in New York, "Turn the tape recorder off." Actually, that inspired me. I turned if off and really whizzed around.

With the LP he is clearly using the bridge pickup. The Model One has a single pickup more towards the neck. There's the difference in tone.

[Rick Turner]

He got the Model 1 in '79. I've got that guitar here in my shop right now...beat to hell and back.

BTW, the pickup is really more in the position of the middle pickup on a Les Paul Custom. Don't forget the 24 fret fingerboard...

An frankly, I could give a lesser shit what various pickup winders think of the guitars or the pickups; I make them for musicians.

[JGundry]

An frankly, I could give a lesser shit what various pickup winders think of the guitars or the pickups; I make them for musicians.

Are you this arrogant in real life or is just a part you play on the internet?

I like your model one but it is obviously a different tonal animal than a humbucker equipped Les Paul middle pickup or not. So again clearly the pickups and gear have a huge tonal impact beyond the players input.

You might be surprised how many qualified luthiers there are on the pickup makers forum. I make these the same way my great grandfather and my grandfather did. With only hand tools and with scrapers instead of sandpaper. They are for musicians.

[David Schwab]

Jon, if Gibson makes a Les Paul, and it has a certain tone, why should Rick or anyone else make a guitar that sounds like a Les Paul? Why not do something original? Should we all be playing the same style guitar, using the same tone, and playing the same music as well?

Unfortunately we have gotten used to people making products that are nothing but copies of someone else's designs. They did the hard work, and the copiers just make copies. Regardless of the fact that some of the original instruments, pickups, or pedals aren't available anymore, they are still nothing but copies. If the originators of those designs did nothing but copy previous designs, nothing new would ever happen.

Also regarding Lindsey Buckingham's tone. If the Model One had a bridge pickup it would sound more like his old tone. I can get that tone in a number of guitars that are not Les Pauls or even have PAF style humbuckers. His tone in that older clip hardly even sounds like a Les Paul because of the tape recorder preamp. It's a lot brighter.

I'm not speaking for Rick, but I think what he's saying is he doesn't care if other people like his guitars because he likes them. You don't have to try and please everyone. There is a place for the mainstream, and other people like to do something different. And some of the stuff Rick has done in the past, like with Alembic, is pretty much mainstream for a lot of bass makers, including me.

[JGundry]

You are missing the point David. Rick's assertion that the pickups and guitar are not a major component in the final tone when it comes to an individual player is just not valid.

The longitudinal body resonance is going to be radically different with the Model One compared to a Les Paul Custom. The stiffer neck and solid body of the Les Paul is clearly giving a snappier tone and pickup placement in the bridge will not overcome that. So again the gear is a major component of the tone beyond mere pickup placement and there is no way any guitar player can overcome that reality.

It has nothing to do with which tone is which tone is "better". They are different tones for a reason and poo pooing the obvious with claims of the players tone being in the fingers is silly. The technique and execution are in the fingers. The tone comes through the gear. I find it hard to believe a guitar maker would really confuse these two.

[Rick Turner]

Gundry, you are out of your frigging mind. You have no idea what you're talking about with regard to Model 1 vs. Les Paul construction. I doubt you've every had one of my guitars in your hands. Please talk from a place of your own real knowledge, not from some place of utter bullshit. I don't care whether or not you like my guitars or their tone, but at least get your facts right...which you have not done. I suggest you go to my website and download "Building the Turner Guitar" by Barry Price. You might just learn something...like about doing your homework before spouting off on a forum where there are some knowledgeable people.

The classic Model 1 neck is a five piece laminate of maple and purple heart. The classic Les Paul neck is mahogany. Tell me which is stiffer.

The Model 1 has a solid mahogany body, much like the original Les Paul custom (no maple cap); tell me what's so different.

And I never said that pickups and the guitar are not a major component in tone, I just think that too many guitar makers and pickup makers forget how much tone is in a guitar player's fingers. We as instrument makers can never forget that we simply make tools for musicians. We do not make their music...and we only make a part of their tone. I have heard my favorite guitar players each play a variety of instruments, and I never miss their own signature tone, and this is true for a lot of my luthier peers hearing great guitarists. Put BB King on a J-200 and he'll make it sound like Lucille (heard at the Gibson factory by Tim Shaw), let Ry Cooder pick up any guitar in Westwood Music...he sounds just like Ry Cooder. Ditto Lindley, ditto Carlos Santana, ditto Richard Thompson, ditto Sonny Landreth. They sound like themselves not because of some pickup but because of who they are. Pickups are merely windows into the tone of the guitar...and the guitarist.

[David Schwab]

You are missing the point David. Rick's assertion that the pickups and guitar are not a major component in the final tone when it comes to an individual player is just not valid.

But that's his opinion, just as this is yours. And my experience as a musician is I can get variations of my tone from anything. Some are closer to what I like to hear than others, but they all sound like me playing. I also don't like to use the same tone all the time on any of the instruments I play.

My experience from 44 years as a musician says it is valid. I have no preference to pickups or instruments. They are tools, and I don't need a particular combination to get my tone. So for me, my tone is not in the instrument. I prefer to play instruments I made, because I make them to not sound like everything else, but they can.

To put money where my mouth is, go to my MySpace page and listen.

David Schwab on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Downloads

On the guitar parts, you will find A Les Paul, a Charvel Strat with a Gibson Dirtyfinger, A lucite Longhorn with Dano neck with a Dimarzio Super II clone, a parts Strat with a DiMarzio Virtual Vintage, and a Fender Mustang with Lawrence L-250s. For basses a Rickenbacker, an Ibanez, and some of my basses. But they all sound like me. Bet you can't find the Les Paul in the tracks (because it doesn't sound like a Les Paul).

Point is guitars and pickups are tools for people to make music. They don't do anything on their own though. Someone else playing my gear wont sound like me playing the same guitar or bass. Do pickups change the sound of the guitar? To an extent, yes. But you still hear the guitar, and the player. Pickup's are more like microphones with built in filters. A Tele pickup on a Les Paul wont make it sound lieke a tele (and vice versa). But I have Fender scale guitars with humbuckers and tune-o-matics that sound more like Teles than Pauls. So how much is pickup, and how much is the guitar?

Then take the same style guitar in the hands of different players, and they wont sound the same. So then how much is the guitar, and how much is the player? Buddy Holly and Jimi Hendrix used the same guitar and pickups. Did they sound the same? Does Blackmore sound like SRV? Same guitar and pickups. Does Robert Fripp sound like Duane Allman? Same guitar and pickups...

The longitudinal body resonance is going to be radically different with the Model One compared to a Les Paul Custom. The stiffer neck and solid body of the Les Paul is clearly giving a snappier tone and pickup placement in the bridge will not overcome that. So again the gear is a major component of the tone beyond mere pickup placement and there is no way any guitar player can overcome that reality.

I disagree. "Longitudinal body resonance"? Come on now Jon. Les Pauls sound like they do partly from the scale length and the body weight. Mahogany necks are not that stiff. How does a Les Paul have a stiffer neck? They both have mahogany necks. I think the Model One has graphite rods in the neck... the LP doesn't. The Model One is lighter.

They both had snappy tones because he plays with his fingers. Listen to the beginning of the song and not the solo. He also is obviously not playing the same way. Players can get many tones with their fingers. You can see he's much more relaxed in the more recent clip. He's not attacking the strings the same way. But on the old recordings his Strat sounds like the LP.

It has nothing to do with which tone is which tone is "better". They are different tones for a reason and poo pooing the obvious with claims of the players tone being in the fingers is silly. The technique and execution is in the fingers. The tone comes through the gear. I find it hard to believe a guitar maker would really confuse these two.

But it seems you are saying the Les Paul tone is better, right? As in your example, both of those Fleetwood Mac clips has him sounding like Lindsey Buckingham. There is no denying that. But one sounds like a bridge pickup and the other has more of a neck pickup tone. But it still sound like the same guy playing, right? If he were playing a Tele, he would sound like Lindsey Buckingham playing a Tele.

As another example, take Jimmy Page. He recorded with Teles, Strats, Les Pauls, and even Danelectros, and it still sounds like Jimmy Page.

[Ronsonic]

3-48 is the standard size mostly used

I sorta giggle when I see "3-48" and "standard size" in the same sentence.

Same for the pole screws.

One thing I gotta say for Leo Fender, standard, normal, ordinary, every-day screw sizes from one end to the other.

[Ronsonic]

And I never said that pickups and the guitar are not a major component in tone, I just think that too many guitar makers and pickup makers forget how much tone is in a guitar player's fingers. We as instrument makers can never forget that we simply make tools for musicians. We do not make their music...and we only make a part of their tone. I have heard my favorite guitar players each play a variety of instruments, and I never miss their own signature tone, and this is true for a lot of my luthier peers hearing great guitarists. Put BB King on a J-200 and he'll make it sound like Lucille (heard at the Gibson factory by Tim Shaw), let Ry Cooder pick up any guitar in Westwood Music...he sounds just like Ry Cooder. Ditto Lindley, ditto Carlos Santana, ditto Richard Thompson, ditto Sonny Landreth. They sound like themselves not because of some pickup but because of who they are. Pickups are merely windows into the tone of the guitar...and the guitarist.

If I may comment, I'm just an amp mechanic and guitar build dabbler and way out of my league among the constructors here. But, got opinions.

Music is an art. Instrument building is a craft. There is art in it which is why it isn't a trade, but it is a craft and not the art. Mostly instruments, including their pickups and amps are tools for artists and just as a poet may write differently with a word processor than longhand the tool can affect the artist's performance but it doesn't determine the performance.

There is a feedback loop between the player and the sound and feel of the instrument. You may be inclined / inspired to play a bit differently because of the character of the instrument you're holding. But it is still a tool for the artist. There is a collaboration between the luthier and the guitarist. But the performance and music still belongs to the musician not the tool. And yes, it's natural that the man who creates that tool has his share of pride and enjoyment of the outcome.

The other side of this is that for us million monkeys to ever create that proverbial Shakespearean Sonnet we each must pound at our typewriter with vigor and enthusiasm. And we will inevitably believe that our pounding keys and experimenting and pursuing our piece of that vision is the most important thing. That's only natural and part of the process of creation.

[David Schwab]

us million monkeys

Now there's a song or album title if I ever saw one!

And Jon, I didn't mean to sound annoyed, but clearly the big tonal difference I hear was from the pickup being closer to the neck. They sound rounder and looser there. Don't you agree? His tone on the Model One was rounder and looser and warmer. Both tones were nice. I love a nice juicy neck pickup for soloing, and in between is a good balance between tight/bite, and warm/loose.

And scale legnth is more important on tone than people think! I only recently discovered how much with some of my own experimenting. Longer scales are always brighter and have more twang. Even on bass. Shorter scales are more rubbery and easier to bend strings on.

[JGundry]

Rick it would not hurt to be nice if I'm wrong. I may be a customer one day. I did like the Model One I played at Elderly years ago. Obviously you know what you make better than anyone and I don't care to dissect it. I was merely using it as a way to illustrate how gear can have a huge impact on tone with the same player with the A/B youtube clips I posted.

I was speaking in terms of modal analysis. I do this with my violins. It is comes down to mass, stiffness resonant frequencies and how they relate to and change the locations of nodal points on the body. Most guitar makers don't do it. It is more complicated than neck stiffness and wood choice.

Again it is not mystical, it is simple. Famous players are recognized no matter what they play due to technique and execution. That is what you are identifying when you hear them. The rest of the tone is in the gear. Artistry for the musician is in the technique and execution. The artistry for the maker is in the technique and execution of the gear being made for the musician.

A statement like, "Pickups are merely windows into the tone of the guitar...and the guitarist", is not informative. Pickups are a tonal filter that the maker can control.

[RedHouse]

...There is a feedback loop between the player and the sound and feel of the instrument. You may be inclined / inspired to play a bit differently because of the character of the instrument you're holding....

+1, I've been preaching that scenario for years!

[David King]

I just wanted to point out that 3/48 is a perfectly normal thread in the "National Coarse" pantheon/ It's not Seth Lover's fault that Home Despot and Lowes killed most of the real hardware stores in the country.
The bizarre thread choice was the metric thread used for height adjustment on Asian HBs.. M2.5x.4

[Ronsonic]

I just wanted to point out that 3/48 is a perfectly normal thread in the "National Coarse" pantheon/ It's not Seth Lover's fault that Home Despot and Lowes killed most of the real hardware stores in the country.
The bizarre thread choice was the metric thread used for height adjustment on Asian HBs.. M2.5x.4

Well, I'll agree with you that the metric stuff is truly satan-sized.

[RedHouse]

I just wanted to point out that 3/48 is a perfectly normal thread in the "National Coarse" pantheon/ It's not Seth Lover's fault that Home Despot and Lowes killed most of the real hardware stores in the country.
The bizarre thread choice was the metric thread used for height adjustment on Asian HBs.. M2.5x.4

It's actually NF not NC, I thought you said you were a machinist?

Just kidding, I thought NC and NF designations didn't start until screw size 6?