WTF? ...Supporting Guitarism Section on Sound Magazine

[RedHouse]

Hi there gentlemen
This is Baris Sahin who you were mentioning about. I learned this particular thread a bit late due to my tight schedule and couldn’t find much time to keep my eyes on this forum recently.
First of all, I was upset about the general approaches to my e-mail. Let me explain why: Since April, I’ve been working on a bunch of article series and interviews about electric guitar pickups. Lindy Fralin, Seymour Duncan, Steve Blucher and a Turkish pickup designer Fatih Yilmaz were the initial guests of my pages. My goal was to prepare the ultimate pickup database which is supported by interviews and reviews. Large companies such as DiMarzio and Seymour Duncan is easy to reach, becuase they have distrubitors here, but when it comes to boutique pickup designers such as many of you is a completely different story. One can’t easily find a guitar loaded with Throbaks or Chavalliers around.
I believe any business should advertise and promote itseld one way or another. If you have a product to sell, you have to do that. For instance, recording companies send promo CD's and press releases, and boutique product manifacturers send promotional goods. This is the nature of trading.
As I mentioned above, before preparing the ultimate pickup database, I sent THAT e-mail to anyone I could reach. I -as an author of the magazine- (which reaches to hundreds of recording- rehersal studios, producers, musicians, players, performers, cafe shops, bands and thousands of young people and it sells 10,000 issues in every month. But "Sound" reaches much more than that) requested stuff for those articles (custom wound ones) and a possible giveaway promotion for our readers. The purpose of this kind of giveaway promotions are simple: To let the potential customers experience the product in flesh . The cost of one full page advertisement is a few thousands of USD. What I requested costs a lot and lot cheaper investment than that. So, I see it is fair enough from my point of view. You felt yourself suspicious? Then why not ask more information or may be refuse politely. Despite I do understand many of your thoughts, I believe , I really did deserve a polite response espeacially from such people who have enough vision to bring innovations to the market with their knowledge and hard work. I'm pretty sure you’ve been facing many people around the world who ask free stuff and some of those may also be hoax. However , I always belive a little comminucation may solves many problems before they already occured. Plus, it was just an offer. Every one of you might have different rules or way to promote, so the mentioned terms in my email was negotiable in any way.

The reason is, the major music genre is a bit different than the western music approach, and the gear market seems limited, but many people rather to shop on ebay or contact the boutique manufacturers by theirselves. Therefore, an undeniable icreasing tendency has been happening on guitar related gear for the last 10 years. It is focused in major cities mostly such as Istanbul (20 million people). It is focused on some certain places like Istiklal Street on Beyoglu and we have 2 or 3 national gear magazines . Of course there are many readers, subscribers of American and/or British guitar&gear magazines as well. Major or boutique companies have been signing with the dealers in Turkey in a growing pace. Many major companies showed their faces in the Turkish market such as PRS, Heritage, Blade, Voodoo Labs, Xotic, Orange, Mesa Boogie etc. The list is too long indeed. On the other hand it’s been only Lindy Fralin who shows up as a boutique pickup
I think that very last line of mine concludes the fact that why I’ve been working on those pickup articles and interviews in such devotion.
Anyway, if you have any further quesitons about the project, please feel free to ask them here or contact by email, phone etc.

Best Regards,
Baris Sahin

Sorry, that's not the way it's done.

You come off just looking like an internet spammer/scammer with that kind of blanket request. You do realize you're "soliciting" for products, and not "inviting" manufacturers to participate.

Your letter asked for "one product per month" and "a set of pickups from your custom shop" and "a 5-15w amplifier".

Magazines don't solicit products for review in that way, _no_, sorry, but your email request is much like an internet scam artist looking for suckers.

Perhaps you should research the market you're trying to tap into and realize you'll need a different approach, I'm sure you might do better if you did!. While the whole "language barrier" thing may go far for other things, it doesn't make business connections or build bridges for this kind or exchange between a manufacturer and a magazine over the internet.

Please do contact me if you want to purchase some pickups, or an amp, for your reviews, I'm sure I can do some editorial discount thing for you.

Call me old fashioned ...but nothing goes out of my shop for free. Even in cases where I do submit products for review I require them to be returned before any further items are sent. This weeds out the scammers. Sure if we meet at a trade show or something like that maybe I would give over a piece or two if I was persuaded by a one-on-one, but NEVER over unsolicited email from the internet, never. You'll need to re-think your approach.

Then why not ask more information or may be refuse politely.

Why not ask to establish a line communication?, perhaps meet and discuss your proposal? soliciting across the internet is unreliable and un-verifiable.

What makes you think an advertisement in your magazine is worth a few thousand USD to my company? because you say so? well I will need a little more courting before I blindly "donate" the quantities of gear you've asked for.

Times are tough right now and I get numerous "offers" weekly to take my products off my hands for "favorable mention" but that doesn't pay the bills. Speculative advertising is all well and good...in good economic times... but these are not those times.

I make pickups, I make amps, I make effects, I do pro-audio work, but nothing is free, and you'll need to convince me that "donating" any of my products/services is worth value to me and my company. I have not yet sold a single piece to anyone in your country, so explain (convince me) how those thousands of magazines you sell each month are going to be an opportunity for me? So far, you are only presenting an opportunity to give away my work for nothing.



(BTW, this is the email I returned to you)

[J M Fahey]

Interesting thread, and rises some doubts too.
I'm not surprised by

how can you write some reviews on some product you directly get "paid" with and partner with ?

because that's the way *many* (most?) do business today.
It even has its own name: "Sponsorship"
The trade-in might be direct product exchange (as proposed here) or the much more popular "buying some color ad space" in the reviewing magazine.
No relationship between ad square inches/lines/columns/pages and screams of joy and happy surprise from the "independent reviewer", of course. We see it all day long.
Or the famous artist who couldn't care less about the product , nor does ask for straight money in exchange (he isn't that cheap) .... but whose producer is happy by the deal he cut where the "Product Company" helps pay for the Show/CD/Tour/Video which pushes his career ahead.
Of course, an unsolicited, unknown origin EMail won't do.
It carries all the stigma of Spam.
Not surprisingly, it looks like it !!!
If anything, the Magazine owner might work just the other way: kindly ask for News and info on Products, publish them out of goodwill (it also helps to fill pages with interesting stuff), creating goodwill for himself, and letting the relationship develop on its own.

[RedHouse]

...If anything, the Magazine owner might work just the other way: kindly ask for News and info on Products, publish them out of goodwill (it also helps to fill pages with interesting stuff), creating goodwill for himself, and letting the relationship develop on its own.

That's exactly what I was thinking when I got the email.

I was like geez dude, maybe you should actually do some write-ups and be able to show some financial interest before asking for free stuff (with certain quantity's, and on a schedule no less).

I may have been more interested in his (unknown to me) magazine had the guy shown some kind of (direct) results that would effect me and my business, other than some un-verifiable subscriber figures.

My wife said: "hmmm, if this guy really has a magazine, I wonder why he didn't just send you a complimentary copy when soliciting your support? that might have lended at least some credibility to his approach".
(smart woman she is!)

[Ronsonic]

I will say, this is a lot more direct and honest than the way most niche publications (AKA, nut books) handle review samples and products. Usually, you're expected to submit stuff for review and know better than to ask for it back. Here it's explicit. Gimme stuff, I write nice.

[big_teee]

I will say, this is a lot more direct and honest than the way most niche publications (AKA, nut books) handle review samples and products. Usually, you're expected to submit stuff for review and know better than to ask for it back. Here it's explicit. Gimme stuff, I write nice.

Big Companies can do that, but It's kinda hard for a Small Owner Shop to Give all the Pricey Stuff and send it to Turkey!
Most Small BooTeekers Are Just Trying to sell Enough Stuff to Scrape up enough Jack for the Next Mojo Order!
At Least that Fits My Facility!
B-T

[J M Fahey]

Even worse.
"Big Magazines" don't even want your stuff !!
They'd rather have you buy some Ad space (back cover preferred), and *then* they "write nice".
You name the Magazine, they do it.
I remember an *excellent* Italian Hi Fi magazine, "Suono", incredible unbiased tests.
A typical comment would be: "Yes, this *is* a JBL bookshelf speaker, at least Harman Kardon distributes it, but .... couldn't they just have spent a little more on the magnet?" and so on.
They never published rubbish such as "silver plated speaker cable" or rather, they *measured* it along zipcord, and so on ..... posting the actual findings (Lab and Blind Panel).
They spoke well about what worked well, such as RCF speakers, QUAD amps, etc., testing everything (such as TriTIM tests, Laser Doppler scans of tweeter diaphragms, etc.)
They closed up for good in the 80's.
It was re-opened later, "under new management" .... and now they "like" everything they test.
Oh well.

[Regis]

I sent him my 1960 Strat. He seems real trustworthy.

[LtKojak]

if this guy really has a magazine, I wonder why he didn't just send you a complimentary copy when soliciting your support? that might have lended at least some credibility to his approach[/I]".

Because it'll be in TURKISH and it'll create more confusion than any other thing.

Anyway, how good would be marketing in Turkey for a p'up winder anyway? Without a distributor that will take care of the comunication barrier, IMO it'll only be an exercise in futility.

[J M Fahey]

Caro Pepe:
as much as I respect you and your opinions, I think in this particular case you missed the point.
The magazine language is irrelevant ... or to be more precise, it must match the market language ; you should receive an English translatiom, of course.
Imagine having an interview published in Germany, Austria, France, Italy, the Netherlands, Spain, etc. or even Brazil or Argentina.
If it were in English, quite a few could still read it, even with some difficulty .
Say .... 20%? You'd lose the other 80% (or more).
And any of those markets would be interesting, to say the least, specially for a small or home-based pickup winder.
As of the distribution system, I think talking distributors is talking too big, unless you are Di Marzio, Seymour Duncan, and similar large and well known factories.
The beauty of pickups is that they are small and light, and can be simply sent by mail, straight to the customer's door.
International Mail rules allow you to send up to 2 Kilos (4.4 pounds) from any post office, anywhere in the world, with no Customs burocracy for you, just filling up the "Small Parcel/Packet" green stamp affixed to the box, where you can freely state it's a "gift"; value, say, U$30 (to make the customer pay less or even nothing at his Customs office).
Anyway, as I said so before, Nienturi's approach was flawed from the beginning.
He should have started by offering interviews, and publishing a lot of "News" about your products, out of good will; and much later, only *if* some interest develops, see what can be arranged for the convenience of both parties.
Which might even be him being some kind of distributor, on a (small) percentage basis after the sale is completed to your satisfaction.
As an example: if he gets 10% ; after he made you sell 10 pickups, he gets the equivalent of one , which he now is asking up front.
If he only makes you sell, say, 3, then he gets 30% of a pickup, what reality says his publicity is worth.
I have personally cut similar deals for years, with Music Schools and rehearsal studios (and a couple popular Pubs and Clubs, where "everybody plays") plus some Magazines too.
Just my 200 Italian Lira.

[big_teee]

I want to hear More about sending a 1960 Strat???
Really?
He must have been Kidding or Something!
T

[RedHouse]

...Most Small BooTeekers Are Just Trying to sell Enough Stuff to Scrape up enough Jack for the Next Mojo Order!...

Yeah, all the parts for the next stuff ...and:
pay the rent
pay the POWER
pay the water/sewer
pay the advertising
pay the ISP, 'cause we can't be alive on the net w/o it these days.

WARNING: Tangent/Rant Alert!....

As a side note of similar vein, I seem to be getting more and more edgy (less patient?) with people like this these days. For instance I get a lot of heat on other forums (ie; DIY effects building forums) for not "sharing" my Vibe-Baby layouts and only the project I published (for free, personal consumption) back in 2005. I realized a long time ago there was no money in selling circuit boards to my peers (for $12-a-board) and made the decision to sell only fully assembled drop-in pre-wired assembly's, or a full retail pedal, no DIY offerings.

So I get a lot of guff off some forum members, I guessing they have day jobs (or whatever they do to pay above noted montly bills) and their post are filled with angst and a sense of entitlement. Somehow in their minds because I post on the same forum and speak on the same topics they feel I owe them my work for free. Are they so clueless about trying to run (ie; survive) a business when the econmy has flat bottomed out like it has for the past 3-1/2 years?, nope I don't think so, it's greed. Of course they turn that around on you and call you greedy for not sharing, or charging a fair price for your product/labor.

I feel it's a really bad attitude for these guys "give us stuff for free, we'll say good things about you".
(and conversely, don't and we'll flame you for it!)

It's the "squeeky wheel" thing really, there are literally hundreds (if not thousands) of forum members who don't exibit this behavior, so don't read me wrong, I'm specifically speaking of those who feel entitled to your work and expertise for free just for their public approval, the internet is a weird weird place sometimes.

...end of Tangent/Rant Alert, now return to your regularly scheduled programming, if this had been a real emergency, oxygen masks would fall from the ceiling.

[David Schwab]

Brad, you forgot:

pay for food

And I agree with everything you just wrote.

People also seem to think they have a right to copy other people's work, especially with stomp boxes. Although many of those are already copies of existing pedals with minor "tweaks".

[RedHouse]

Well I was going to leave that out, I need to go on a diet anyway.

Yeah I know what you mean, there is a particular forum member that likes to re-write history placing himself as the originator of all things or ideas. The M-O is that anything that was in fact not his, he just waits a while (sometimes years) then comes out with his own version has this non-acknowlegement policy (ego) that won't allow public recognition of the sources. Strangely the same guy feels offended if someone uses his ideas w/o acknowlegement, go figure.

That's one thing entirely and can definately be overlooked ...but... there are others who actually steal and get offended when you become aware of it and ask them to stop.

That public project I mentioned has a "proviso" in that it's for personal use only, no sales or revenue generating schemes, and I retained the copyright and trademark name unto myself. So like half a dozen guys now have actualy tried making and selling the PCB's, online, and when I find out and say "hey now" they say "F-O", can ya believe that?. In two of the cases I even had to go over their heads and complain to the ISP's hosting access to the sales, officially complaining they were engauged in copyright and trademark infringement, and only then with pressure from their own ISPs did they decide to "abide".

These are the same guys who would call me a money-grubber because I'm "in business" trying to make a living, but isn't it funny how fast they cave when their ISP threatens to pull the plug on their own money-maker!. Of course, they made me out to be the bad guy, what with their sense of entitlement to other peoples bill-payers (work), geez, don't get me started.

The weird thing is, these ARE the minority, the few "squeeky wheels" that get all the attention and cause the big waves. Out of the several hundered decent folk who have built my public (free) project only 6 have publicly tried to fly with it and do business. All the rest are and contunue to be decent folk about it.

We've had threads before here about (Rickenbacker/DiMarzio) copyrighted/trademarked things, usually discussing the right/wrong of existing cases or patent office faux-pas, but I can't recall anybody here (in my memory) actualy making a clone pickup and printing the original guy's name, copyright symbol, and trademark name right on them as they did in my case.

One guy had an attitude, and said this to me: "it's on the public internet, so it's free and fair game to all" and while that happens, it's not free and fair game, it's stealing and dealing.
(oops, I tangented again, sorry)

[big_teee]

One guy had an attitude, and said this to me: "it's on the public internet, so it's free and fair game to all" and while that happens, it's not free and fair game, it's stealing and dealing.
(oops, I tangented again, sorry)

Some think It's not Fraud, unless you get caught.
They Just think it's Good Business.
B-T

[copperheadroads]

Most Small BooTeekers Are Just Trying to sell Enough Stuff to Scrape up enough Jack for the Next Mojo Order!
At Least that Fits My Facility!
B-T

That is so true