Challenging and exciting new design needs a guru !

[Chuck H]

To be honest, I thought the same as well.

Here in Italy is common practice and I'm sick and tired of it as well. When I'm approached in this way I tend to react from mildly unpolite to downward plain nasty and even physically violent if insisted upon.

I suppose it's common practice everywhere. That's probably why no one else saw it as rude. People accept this sort of boorish behavior because it's common.

I don't have any problem at with the product. It's novel and interesting. That's usually enough to make something worth doing for me. I don't see it becoming the next big thing, but if you told me twenty years ago that all the water I drink will be bought at a store I'd have though that wasn't going to happen either.

[Steve Conner]

I know a guy who opperates his life on the philosophy "you don't get anything if you don't ask." So he commonly asked for things that are unreasonable or right on the edge of unreasonable. Of course he is more successful than I am

I believe that's what's commonly known as a "businessman". This is why you should never do business with your friends: if you're any good at business, you'll soon have no friends left. And if you're not, your business will fail.

I've done a number of similar things to what the original poster was asking, under NDA. And it works exactly as you say: The "initial consultation" is just your opportunity to dangle a carrot in front of the client and show that you have the goods. If they actually want their hands on the carrot, then the corporate wallet has to get prised open. And the NDA just means that you "don't talk about Fight Club". In order to solve the client's problem, they need to tell you their corporate secrets, and they need a way of ensuring that you won't sell them to anyone else. Your signing the NDA simply allows them to sue you and win if you do that. Non-disclosure sometimes goes deeper than that: some clients don't even want anyone to know that they hired a consultant instead of solving the problem in-house. Read the NDA carefully.

If the client's problem is so easy that you accidentally solve it right there and then in the initial consultation, then I don't know what to do. The last time that happened, I got paypal'd $200 for the favour. But any problem worth hiring a consultant for is probably not that easy.

[mkat]

Did you read the OP??? it basically says 'sign an NDA, tell us how to perfect our product for free and we can discuss future payment'.

My apologies for dragging this on, but this is how I read it too. He made amusing attempts to hide or modify what he clearly stated and meant.

It was conceded that this was worded "hastily".

Hastily? Well, he is a CEO posting as such on a public forum. The Gittler name was out of the bag, he points out he's trying to avoid the wrong kind of publicity - is that right? Well, IMO, people here pretty much immediately saw through the OP and exposed the risk in that line LOL, nothing wrong with that. The OP was the direct cause of the scrutiny people applied to it, but IMO the buck stops with the CEO. The strategy of blaming everyone else doesn't always work...

[RedHouse]

....I'm simply sitting back and watching some of you make fools of yourselves....

Actually you're looking the fool for making that statement.

The "criticism" was about the one sided NDA/Free-consultation which is good for you, but not for the ones you hope to find, if that's fair enough for you, rock on. You are the one recruiting, it's on you to make an acceptable offer, detail the scope and content of the NDA etc.. People knock you back and you're hard done by?

Some of you guys are so funny! ...
Read your non disclosure agreements carefully but they are very common to use.
....

Your preach'in to the chior there Jason, my wife Anne (you and Stephanie met her before but you probably don't recall) is quite able to deal with all things legal being with a large law firm in Bellevue, but no, "speculative" NDA's while commomly offered are not common in law until after meetings detailing content and scope of the agreement and then the project. Not really "funny", more a legal matter which would be outlined in a personal contact email, unlike a broad, open, internet forum post such as this.

Anyone serious about this would surely have enough smarts/savvy to understand they should contact winders/makers directly with their "offer", but a post on a public forum? not seemingly a real "business" move.
(but that is an opinion, YMMV)

...the buck stops with the CEO. The strategy of blaming everyone else doesn't always work...

Yep, well said.

...This is why you should never do business with your friends: if you're any good at business, you'll soon have no friends left. And if you're not, your business will fail...

That's way too big of a blanket statement there Steve.

Going into business gives one some hard lessons, it can be a hard personal lesson when you hire friends and they don't "work out" but some do, just as hiring stangers sometimes does work out, and likewise many fine business folk have good friends and sometimes business friends can be very good friends because there is less baggage to carry. Although it rings as some kind of altruism, that's a silly thing to say (IMHO).

[Chuck H]

Going into business gives one some hard lessons, it can be a hard personal lesson when you hire friends and they don't "work out" but some do, just as hiring stangers sometimes does work out, and likewise many fine business folk have good friends and sometimes business friends can be very good friends because there is less baggage to carry. Although it rings as some kind of altruism, that's a silly thing to say (IMHO).

It's a really good point Steve made and even though the point was a correction to my position I will back it. I personally don't try to take advantage of people in my practices but it is common practice to do your best to take advantage of people in busuness. A fool and his money are soon parted. Find the fool and make some $$$. Fine... We are all doing what we must to make ends meet. But how many are doing and taking whatever they can because they can compared to how many people are doing what they should because they should. When this gets out of balance things go bad. I'm not going to get philisophical about it but I do think it's indicative that many or even most posters here accept the OP as a legitimate offer. The fact is that it's rude loutish behavior that we accept because it's common. But that doesn't make it ideal or even acceptible or OK. No one here behaves in that way toward other posters. So if it's really about initiating new members that have something to contribute, fine. If your just interested in the project, fine. But excusing this sort of behavior only perpetuates it. I work most of my day in this environment and I just don't want to see it infiltrate this forum.

I'd like to say I'm sorry if I've been out of line. Except that I'm not. Remember, whatever you give up for someone else, your probably never going to get it back as long as that someone remains in your life. We do need to be selective about new members, contributers, whatever.

[RedHouse]

...but it is common practice to do your best to take advantage of people in busuness. A fool and his money are soon parted. Find the fool and make some $$$. Fine......

I totally disagree with that attitude, but then I'm old fashioned. I'm not looking to take advantage of anyone, there's plenty of honest money to be made w/o any of that angst creeping in to my business.

When folks want what I have, I negotiate the deal, boom done. Nothing more, nothing less, I'm too busy for all that other BS.

[Dave Kerr]

I'd like to say I'm sorry if I've been out of line. Except that I'm not. Remember, whatever you give up for someone else, your probably never going to get it back as long as that someone remains in your life. We do need to be selective about new members, contributers, whatever.

This is a joke, right? A cadre of sheep-loving winders is some sort of exclusive club?

Man, a guy came in here, proposed a business deal (and yes, shooting a PM out to the pros here would have made better sense for all involved), and the only one we know of here who had had off-board dealings in the matter (and one of the more respected guys in the business, no less) had no issue with him or his approach.

[RedHouse]

This is a joke, right? A cadre of sheep-loving winders is some sort of exclusive club?

Man, a guy came in here, proposed a business deal (and yes, shooting a PM out to the pros here would have made better sense for all involved), and the only one we know of here who had had off-board dealings in the matter (and one of the more respected guys in the business, no less) had no issue with him or his approach.

What, you think we're not all entitled to our own opinions here? why you feel the need to take up a defensive posture escapes me but just as you are entitled to your opinion, likewise am I, and the others.

Again, we're posting our opinions, not debating a political view of the winding community. Someone comes along and posts some verbiage that (apparently) can and is/was misunderstood by many, but gets a quick cross-exam from the regulars here and it's a defend the poor-guy scenario? hmm.

[kevinT]

To piggy back on what Steve said, this dude is a businessman. Of course he's going to make a proposition that will benefit him as well as cover his ass. If you were in his position trying to do what he's attempting to do, most everyone here would probably do the same thing.

My opinion is that the market will generally take care of itself. The gentleman tossed out an offer to see whether he would get any bites. Because of the shit storm, he now knows that if he wants to get someone here involved with his project, he's probably gonna have to modify his terms.

Making an offer that might not appeal to some folks or may seem outlandish is not a Fedeal offense...and it's not bad behavior. This is business. NEGOTIATE. If this gentleman wants to accomplilsh what he wants bad enough and the prospective maker wants the business bad enough, a deal will happen.

We need some new sheep stock around here anyway, stop scaring them away.

[Chuck H]

As I said before:

How hard would it have been, really, to word his request in a way that offered some respect? 'My company is working on reintroducing the Gittler guitar. We would like to interview knowledgable techs to act on a consulting basis.' That's not how it went down though. And now we see this defensive attitude. I can't be the only one who recognizes this.

To come out of the gate like some puffed up, carrot dangling psuedo CEO with a 'are you good enough' attitude just rubbed on me wrong I guess. I have no problem other than his initial attitude and refusal to admit his clumbsiness. He now feels he can't relinquish power because that puts him at a disadvantage (this is 'negotiation 101' really) but to bag the whole prospect and fail to recognize the company he's in is very telling IMHO. He should have stepped out of the box and practiced some humility. I'm not sure this is a guy I'd get into bed with. Others here have been closer than we here discussing it and chose not to. Their diplomacy is admirable and professional.

A legitimate business offer??? Not in the OP. the OP's second offer that doesn't insist as much from the initial consultation is much more appropriate. I hope anyone here who is actually interested in the project has started a PM. But don't expect to make any $$$. he OP's attidude and posturing are something I recognize. Anyone getting involved will next time. But hey, if you just want to be involved because you like the project, dont mind that your name and efforts will remain invisable and possibly get an unusual instrument for your efforts it could work out. That actually seems like perfectly good reasons to me. The OP just rubbed me wrong.

[Chuck H]

It's not a Gittler per se but it was designed (and I think built) by Avraham Bar Rashi (Allan Gittler) and I believe it is on display at the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston. Which actually gives a very prestigeious position to the Gittler name as the "fish bone" guitar (in your pic) is on display at the Museum of Modern Arts in N.Y. Not sure but I think that's an exclusive distinction.

[salvarsan]

It's not a Gittler per se but it was designed (and I think built) by Avraham Bar Rashi (Allan Gittler)

I don't understand this. If it was designed and built by Gittler, how is it not a 'Gittler', i.e., the term used for the 60 built by him in the US before leaving for Israel?

... and I believe it is on display at the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston. Which actually gives a very prestigeious position to the Gittler name as the "fish bone" guitar (in your pic) is on display at the Museum of Modern Arts in N.Y. Not sure but I think that's an exclusive distinction.

Not sure about the MFA, but MOMA lists it online.

[Mark Hammer]

I don't understand this. If it was designed and built by Gittler, how is it not a 'Gittler', i.e., the term used for the 60 built by him in the US before leaving for Israel?

I suppose that would depend on what you feel the essential or distinctive elements of the Gittler are. I mean there are how many solid-body guitars with piezo bridge pickups now, and we don't conceive of them as Parker or Godin clones anymore. Is it possible for the Gittler principle of a sort of floating fretboard to be implemented in another form? I suppose so. People are entitled to other views, but for me that would constitute a Gittler-inspired instrument, while not making it "a Gittler".

Remember, there was a time when there was only ONE guitar with a solid centre extending from the neck, and acoustic "wings" attached to the side. Hmmm, I wonder what ever happened to that guy?

[David Schwab]

I suppose that would depend on what you feel the essential or distinctive elements of the Gittler are. I mean there are how many solid-body guitars with piezo bridge pickups now, and we don't conceive of them as Parker or Godin clones anymore. Is it possible for the Gittler principle of a sort of floating fretboard to be implemented in another form? I suppose so. People are entitled to other views, but for me that would constitute a Gittler-inspired instrument, while not making it "a Gittler".

But we are talking about two guitars designed and built by Gittler himself.

Ken Parker also makes archtop guitars, and they are also Parkers, but they aren't Parker Flys.

Remember, there was a time when there was only ONE guitar with a solid centre extending from the neck, and acoustic "wings" attached to the side. Hmmm, I wonder what ever happened to that guy?

Alembics? That guy is around here somewhere....

[RedHouse]

... Because of the shit storm ...a Fedeal offense

I don't read anyone's posts in this thread as a shit storm or reaction like a huge offense has been turned, I read these posts as people saying "hey wait a minute, hold the phone there buddy" but the polarization view has always been a way to be comfortable with scruitiny or debate. If one rationalizes things into a left/right view it makes room for one to be in the middle, the 'ol mr common sense.

Look back on any of the threads that draw scruitiny, there is always those who say "I'll call that bluff" and then the obligatory ones of "he's just been misunderstood", happens all the time in a public forum.