PRS on PAF

[Bill M]

I thought Gibson used to get their wire from Phelps-Dodge?

Fender also used Phelps Dodge wire.

[JGundry]

I'm pretty sure PE coating is a varnish whose main component is linseed oil. Apparently Benzene is the chemical not used by in modern PE. Bit it is still used by at least one PE maker.

I'm very skeptical about claims of 50's copper purity based up a small sampling. I have read the flip side to this that aluminum was more pure in the 50's because there was little recycled metal in the 50's. The two don't jibe with me. I think the truth is there is a tolerance of purity then and now and then as now you will find metals on either side of the tolerance. It is just the fact of industrial processes.

[David Schwab]

Possum had some old and new wire analyzed not too long ago, and to sum it up, modern copper wire is more pure than its older counterpart. The PE coating, now, is not a varnish, Formvar is more of a varnish than PE. My understanding is that there were really no EPA regulations back in the 50's/60's and that the chemical composition of the newer PE differs from old PE because of this. Kind of like when we used to have lead in our paint and asbestos in our brake pads, they are still paint and brake pads, but are not the same as the older ones.

Yes, he just reminded me of that. He said the old copper was less pure and high a higher resistance.

PE is oleoresinous varnish. The definition is: "A varnish made by compounding the resin with oxidizable oil, such as linseed oil." These types of film coatings have not changed much over many years. They were some of the first industrial varnishes.

Benzene would be the solvent used, and as with nitrocellulose lacquer, which uses butyl acetate and xylene or toluene, these solvents evaporate leaving behind the film. Actually benzene is often made from toluene. Either way I don't think the presence of benzene would have any effect on the wire when used in pickups, just as the solvent used in nitrocellulose lacquer has no baring on the cured finish.

Formvar is properly known as polyvinyl formal. Formvar is the trade name, probably from formal and varnish. Polyvinyl formal (PVF) is manufactured from PVA by reaction with formaldehyde (CH2O). Another related compound is Polyvinyl butyral (PVB).

So PE is a oleoresin varnish, and formvar is a polyvinyl varnish. They are both varnishes.

A varnish is: "resin dissolved in a liquid for applying on wood, metal, or other materials to form a hard, clear, shiny surface when dry." That describes nitrocellulose lacquer too.

It's easy to find out what certain coatings are made from by looking up the MSDS.

Here's the MSDS for oleoresinous varnish:

http://hazard.com/msds/f2/bdd/bddhx.html

We see:

=============  Composition/Information on Ingredients  =============

Ingred Name:NAPHTHA (PETROLEUM SPIRITS OR BENZIN)
CAS:8030-30-6
RTECS #:SE7555000
Fraction by Wt: 39.5%
OSHA PEL:100 PPM

Ingred Name:CELLOSOLVE ACETATE
RTECS #:KK8550000
Fraction by Wt: 5.6%
ACGIH TLV:500 PPM

For formvar you get:

Section 2 Composition

Component Name           CAS #        Percent       EINECS/ELINCS

1,2-Dichloroethane      107-06-2 1      >99           203-458-1
Polyvinyl formal        63450-15-7      1%

I'm sure there are variations on them, but it's mostly in manufacturing, such as which solvent is used. But these are both polymers. Someone needs to convince me that these would sound different in pickups if the coatings are the same thickness. Is the dielectric constant different?

[David Schwab]

Fender also used Phelps Dodge wire.

I have a roll of Phelps-Dodge 46 AWG. I have no idea how old it is.

[big_teee]

I have a roll of Phelps-Dodge 46 AWG. I have no idea how old it is.

I wonder who will own it next?
I bet you don't get too many orders for 46 ga wire.
Terry

[Bill M]

It's easy to find out what certain coatings are made from by looking up the MSDS.

I fully understand this which reflects the composition NOW but, do we know that the PE coatings of the 50's consisted of the same composition as modern PE ? There were no MSDS sheets back then. Material Safety Data Sheets have only been around since the 70's or maybe early 80's. To me the only way to approve or disprove this would be to obtain a mix formula from one of the wire makers of the time, or have a sample of old PE chemically analyzed.

[David Schwab]

I wonder who will own it next?
I bet you don't get too many orders for 46 ga wire.
Terry

I got it for a prototype I was working on. I have a lot of wire gauges I don't use on a regular basis. I have some 28 gauge too.

[salvarsan]

Yes, he just reminded me of that. He said the old copper was less pure and high a higher resistance.

It makes a big difference in a transducer and other small signal systems,
but is less important farther up the amplification chain.

Formvar is properly known as polyvinyl formal. Formvar is the trade name, probably from formal and varnish. Polyvinyl formal (PVF) is manufactured from PVA by reaction with formaldehyde (CH2O).

Industrially, it's polyvinyl formal if you want to use it for electron microscopy specimens.

Chemically, it is a formaldehyde vinyl acetal resin.

Regarding magnet wire coatings, I think folks said that insulation thickness
made more of a difference than insulation types.

At issue electrically are the dielectric constant and dielectric loss of the different coatings.
They would make the most difference in overwound pickups, and you would see it by
making differential capacitance measurements (i.e., with and without a tiny capacitance
across the pickup leads).

You'd hear the difference as more or less treble roll-off.

[David Schwab]

I fully understand this which reflects the composition NOW but, do we know that the PE coatings of the 50's consisted of the same composition as modern PE ? There were no MSDS sheets back then. Material Safety Data Sheets have only been around since the 70's or maybe early 80's. To me the only way to approve or disprove this would be to obtain a mix formula from one of the wire makers of the time, or have a sample of old PE chemically analyzed.

But why would it matter? Think about the old plastics from back then like bakelite. Bakelite is bakelite. Why would it be different now? Instead of changing the coating, they developed new coatings. That's why I said varnish is varnish. If you change it too much it's something else.

My question is how much difference does the insulation type make? I hear no difference between SPN and formvar for instance as long as the thickness is the same. If someone thinks there is a difference, you have to explain why.

[Dave Kerr]

David, another notion that had been bounced around here is that insulation A may be more prone to microphonics than insulation B due to differences in their coefficients of friction, or maybe one would have a tendency to self-bond more than another.

[Bill M]

My question is how much difference does the insulation type make? I hear no difference between SPN and formvar for instance as long as the thickness is the same. If someone thinks there is a difference, you have to explain why.

Many, including myself, can hear a difference between single build poly and PE of the same diameters. I originally did this test upon a request from a friend and to put my own curiosity to rest. I took PE and poly of the same diameters and DCR per foot( #42), and first wound a humbucker( neck position) for my les paul with the PE, played it clean and overdriven. Just to note, this test was recorded. Second, I reused the same humbucker, stripped the PE off, and and rewound with poly. NOTE: Both winds were done on my Boesch auto traverse winder, wound with the same pattern, turns per layer, and same exact turns count, etc. The pickup was reinstalled to the same exact height as was done for the first test. Nothing was touched on the amp, or recording gear. I did not even need to record the results to hear a difference, it was that obvious to me. To sum it up, the poly was more punchy/ dynamic and had more smoothness to the tone and was a little bit brighter than the PE. To me, the poly wound to 7.5k sounded very t-topish. These are just my findings and i am sure I will be shot down on this.

[big_teee]

Many, including myself, can hear a difference between single build poly and PE of the same diameters. I originally did this test upon a request from a friend and to put my own curiosity to rest. I took PE and poly of the same diameters and DCR per foot( #42), and first wound a humbucker( neck position) for my les paul with the PE, played it clean and overdriven. Just to note, this test was recorded. Second, I reused the same humbucker, stripped the PE off, and and rewound with poly. NOTE: Both winds were done on my Boesch auto traverse winder, wound with the same pattern, turns per layer, and same exact turns count, etc. The pickup was reinstalled to the same exact height as was done for the first test. Nothing was touched on the amp, or recording gear. I did not even need to record the results to hear a difference, it was that obvious to me. To sum it up, the poly was more punchy/ dynamic and had more smoothness to the tone and was a little bit brighter than the PE. To me, the poly wound to 7.5k sounded very t-topish. These are just my findings and i am sure I will be shot down on this.

I've had similar results.
I didn't get near as technical as you, but the 42 PE sure has a darker sound to me, but under the right circumstances, I like the tone better.
I use the SPN the most, I mainly save the PE for vintage repairs, and rewinds.
The PE cost about twice the price of the SPN so I use the SPN when I can.
Terry

[JGundry]

If people cannot hear the difference between Poly and PE they probably have high frequency hearing loss from too much high db exposure over the years. The difference is audible.

PE formulation is the oldest magnet wire coating. There is no component of it that is no longer being made. It is just that pickup makers are the only ones that want it anymore so it is considered obsolete. The formula varies a built from maker to maker and so does the sound of the wire. I have talked to a guy on the production floor at Essex and they said they have the formula to make it and that it is total no brainer for them to make but they have to get the go ahead to make it from sales and when you talk to sales they are not interested in making it at all. It is a specialty wire that only a few places make now but it is not a lost process.

[copperheadroads]

I've had similar results.
I didn't get near as technical as you, but the 42 PE sure has a darker sound to me, but under the right circumstances, I like the tone better.
I use the SPN the most, I mainly save the PE for vintage repairs, and rewinds.
The PE cost about twice the price of the SPN so I use the SPN when I can.
Terry

I agree poly does sound a little brighter , PE sounds a little more pleasing to my ears & they do sound different but both can sound good

[Steve Conner]

These are just my findings and i am sure I will be shot down on this.

It would be nice if you could post the recordings here so we can ABX them.