PRS on PAF

[David Schwab]

David, another notion that had been bounced around here is that insulation A may be more prone to microphonics than insulation B due to differences in their coefficients of friction, or maybe one would have a tendency to self-bond more than another.

OK. How that apply if they are wax potted then?

[David Schwab]

Many, including myself, can hear a difference between single build poly and PE of the same diameters. I originally did this test upon a request from a friend and to put my own curiosity to rest. I took PE and poly of the same diameters and DCR per foot( #42), and first wound a humbucker( neck position) for my les paul with the PE, played it clean and overdriven. Just to note, this test was recorded. Second, I reused the same humbucker, stripped the PE off, and and rewound with poly. NOTE: Both winds were done on my Boesch auto traverse winder, wound with the same pattern, turns per layer, and same exact turns count, etc. The pickup was reinstalled to the same exact height as was done for the first test. Nothing was touched on the amp, or recording gear. I did not even need to record the results to hear a difference, it was that obvious to me. To sum it up, the poly was more punchy/ dynamic and had more smoothness to the tone and was a little bit brighter than the PE. To me, the poly wound to 7.5k sounded very t-topish. These are just my findings and i am sure I will be shot down on this.

OK, so now we have to find out why.

I record everything, because something something will sound very different to me, until I compare the recordings. Sometimes your state of mind skews the results.

Another thing we have to consider is doing tests with the same set of strings. Loosening the string to change pickups can change their tone.

I'm not saying there is no difference between PE and poly, since I have no experience with PE. I would just like to see some tests done to see what's going on. So far it's been one of these "it's different but we don't know why" things.

[Dave Kerr]

OK. How that apply if they are wax potted then?

If they're fully potted, I'd say it wouldn't likely matter much apart from the potential that the wire may lay down a little differently. Who said that the coils in question would always be potted?

[David Schwab]

If they're fully potted, I'd say it wouldn't likely matter much apart from the potential that the wire may lay down a little differently. Who said that the coils in question would always be potted?

No one said they would be. I wondered if they were potted would they sound different. The wire wouldn't lay down different if they were potted since it gets layed down before it's potted.

You have to take all these things into consideration, otherwise we are just making stuff up.

[RedHouse]

Considering how bad PRS's own make pickups suck, I wouldn't pay too much attention.

That is just my personal opinion of the pickups that were in my McCarty. I changed them out for Duncan Alnico 2 Pros, on the recommendation of a forum member here, and it was like a whole new guitar.

I third that opinion.

PRS are nice looking pieces, but their pickups suck the big one.

[RedHouse]

If people cannot hear the difference between Poly and PE they probably have high frequency hearing loss from too much high db exposure over the years. The difference is audible...

Here we go again.

[RedHouse]

...I'm not saying there is no difference between PE and poly, since I have no experience with PE. I would just like to see some tests done to see what's going on. So far it's been one of these "it's different but we don't know why" things.

I do, and IMHO Poly sounds better under most circumstances (today).

Sure it's not traditional (give it a few more years). I spent my first few years winding/testing that old PE-vs-Poly debate and IMHO it just doesn't hold the water the PAF crowd likes to portray but YMMV.

I'm of the opinion that a decent pickup of modern materials can (and often will) sound much better than the 'ol "vintage built" counterpart. (not cheapass parts)

PE has it's place when one is trying to replicate an aniquity "build" not necessarily achieving a "vintage" sound.

Ok, I've got my asbestos underwear on, fire away!.
(just kidding)

{Edit}
BTW, I mean no disrespect to the PAF guy's, it's only an opinion, not intended to start a firestorm of controversy.

[Rick Turner]

When I was doing guitar repairs full time at Westwood Music in LA (1989-1990), I often suggested Seymours Alnico II humbuckers and Strat sets. Nobody was ever disappointed. That series of pickups just sound sweet.

Disclaimer: Subsequent to the above experiences I have become a partner of Seymour's in D-TAR; that didn't change my opinion of his pickups one iota!

[David Schwab]

I second the Alnico II Pros. I've also recommended those to people. Nice sounding pickups.

[NightWinder]

If people cannot hear the difference between Poly and PE they probably have high frequency hearing loss from too much high db exposure over the years. The difference is audible.

PE formulation is the oldest magnet wire coating. There is no component of it that is no longer being made. It is just that pickup makers are the only ones that want it anymore so it is considered obsolete. The formula varies a built from maker to maker and so does the sound of the wire. I have talked to a guy on the production floor at Essex and they said they have the formula to make it and that it is total no brainer for them to make but they have to get the go ahead to make it from sales and when you talk to sales they are not interested in making it at all. It is a specialty wire that only a few places make now but it is not a lost process.

Well, you know there are well known pickup makers that swore there were no sound differences in poly/p.e.coatings and made paf clones for yrs with poly only to finally offer a paf with PE. A great puzzle and a raging debate that will never end. what would Rip Van Winkle Do??

[NightWinder]

In 1918, P.E. was $0.05 per lb.

[Ronsonic]

But...the really hilarious thing is all the talk of just how inconsistent PAFs are...which is true...which means how the hell do you even define what a PAF sounds like since they are all over the map. PAF mania is as much a psychological phenomenon as it is anything else. There IS no clear definition of what a PAF sounds like; there are multiple definitions, so how can you make a perfect clone? Are you cloning a blonde or a brunette? Or is she a raven haired temptress or a wild redhead? No, you're just cloning a woman born in the mid 20th century...

This is true. But I'd say it was more that you are cloning from a family that produced a variety of total babes. Some fair-skinned others raven-haired and dark eyed, but all very pretty. Of all those different sounding PAFs none of them were ugly (that I'm aware of, but then who would admit owning the PAF pickup that sucked).

Then again, it was the PAF that defined the range of humbucker sounds, so by default these have to be "correct."

[RedHouse]

Cracks me up sometimes.

Same guys that swear by PE-vs-Poly because "they can hear the difference" are most often the same guys that say they can't hear the difference in capacitors (or swear there's no difference). A cheap 2¢ mylar film greenie sounds the same to them as a $2.00 polypropylene film-n-foil cap or paper in oil cap, but they can hear the difference between PE and Poly ...yeah.

[David Schwab]

Of all those different sounding PAFs none of them were ugly

Maybe not ugly, but very bland. I've heard some that were nothing special, and modern replacements sounded better. That's also true of some of the boutique clones. I've got a set in a LP here that the owner had for a month or so and they are being replaced with Duncan Alnico IIs, the Slash version.

I think the problem is people think PAFs are dark sounding, they they try and make an exaggerated version of that tone. The PAF clones in this guitar are dull... not much top end, and not much bottom either. They make you go "meh" when you play them.

[David Schwab]

A cheap 2¢ mylar film greenie sounds the same to them as a $2.00 polypropylene film-n-foil cap or paper in oil cap...

Are you talking about in an amp or a guitar? They sound the same in a guitar. You might as well just stuff the $2 in the control cavity. Or send it to me!