Seymour's new cryo-silver pickup

[Rick Turner]

Once again it's assholes hiding behind handles ranting here...

I wish we could make this place an honest name, pseudonym-free zone...

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

And, I'm not sure why Xaar is calling all sorts of things voodoo that are perfectly valid. Like, the differences in capacitors. It is pretty unanimous among engineers that different types of capacitors have different applications - heck, look at a Mouser catalog... they even give recommended uses and qualities in there! And no one can accuse them of audiophile corksniffing because audio is only a small portion of the world that they cater to.

How well it translates to audio, if it is worth the money, how much is marketing and how much is real... those are all real debates, (and we all know that those debates rave on on these boards) but it seems like Xaar is more interested in taking any nuanced opinion and throwing it out because he has some personal vendetta with the hifi world.

[frankfalbo]

Nothing new, besides the choice of silver (no audible difference I already heard thousand dollar cables before in HIFI boutiques, nothing special compared to a good quality 20 buck one)...

SD didn't discover any new exciting property of cryogenics, they just applied a most sought after and quite recent option that can be seen in "want lists" on audiophile crap forums and litterature.

PS: SD didn't "sweat 99% of the time" for a 1% inspiration as in Edison' example , since you're talking about it. Rapid reading of a few forums and voilà !!

These three quotes are ignorant at best, lies at worst. Again, you weren't here during the development. Why don't I start making assumptions about you, like you probably just sit around and read forums and eat Doritos all day. How would I know? What if I said you were a disgruntled ex-Seymour Duncan employee who was fired for being stupid and making aggregious errors on everything you touched? Would that make it true?

Whether your positions are rooted in pure ignorance or not doesn't change their falseness. Equal silver to copper comparisons yield an audible difference. It's not dependent on what you hear in a speaker cable carrying AC. By that logic if you can't hear the difference between silver and copper power cables then we wouldn't hear it in the pickups, but we do so you're wrong. As for our understanding and implementation of cryo, or other properties, and for us gleaning information from forums, those are lies too. My "job" as you put it is not to comb forums for anything. I do it because I'm genuinely interested in these things, mostly on my own time. I've been doing it for many, many years prior to ever working for Seymour Duncan. So please quit lying and making assumptions. Its embarassing for you, and pretty soon I won't entertain you. I'll be done with you.

And yes someone needs to integrate a pickle into their Fender amp. That alone is way more valuable to the industry than this fodder.

[JGundry]

I think this is a kind of cool idea. Some people have tried aluminum magnet wire so why not silver? Inductance differences alone will make it sound different. Others like Heritage HRW pickups and Callaham have done cryo treatment to pickups. It is nothing new but the others must feel there is something to it as well.

I do have one totally unsubstantiated assumption about them though. I'm wondering if the claim that the wire lays down in more orderly rows is really just because the silver wire being used is a thicker wire gauge than 42AWG for these? Again just pulled this out of thin air.

[frankfalbo]

Thanks Jon. We don't call out anything about the wire gauge on the Zephyr Silver pickups, but you can figure it out. But I can tell you that it is exactly the gauge it would have been in copper. And of course all of our testing against copper was against the exact same size copper, no half-gauges and no excessive stretching of the wire to thin it. But I can say that all else being equal the silver lays differently. It not like we're winding with NO tension. I didn't like the photo they took because it was one of the prototypes and I think it had been disassembled at some point. The last layer doesn't look very good to me, a little sloppy. That's of course not how a pickup would be delivered.

And a genuine thank you for saying that your thought about the wire gauge was speculative.

[frankfalbo]

I'm LYING NOW?...insulting me and trying to introduce the FALSE idea that I cold be one of your fired employees. I live in Europe, man, and have nothing to do with your company or any pickup company if that can make you sleep in peace.

Well now you know how I feel. For the record I didn't say that about you, I was using it as an example, and you proved my point. I truly didn't mean that of you, I meant it to illustrate the negative effects of these wild assumptions you have about our product development process. Do you not understand that you are hurling personal insults based on incorrect assumptions? Ironically, your outrage illustrates how you'd have made anyone feel with your rhetoric.

But calling me an "a--hole behind handlebars" is a second mistake.

I would never do any such thing. That is not in my nature. Again, I may have been illustrating a point but did not and would not use that language.

A real comparison would be:
A Zephyr vs a "lofi" Zephyr version with a plain nylon bobbin, standard electrical grade copper wire windings using a gauge (slightly thicker then since copper is slightly more resistant per meter) that would correspond to the silver wire version, of course without cryo treatment and potted as are almost all non-vintage pickups nowadays.
(Of course the shape of the finished windings should be modified to correspond sonically to the silver one, since the wire is a bit thicker with copper)

Will the Zephyr sound leagues better than it's copper counterpart "lofi" twin ?
anyone with a brain can guess easily.

Wouldn't you think that one of the world leaders in pickups would be smart enough to know and do these kinds of things? I have all of those iterations in the engineering room to show for it, and dozens that you'll never hear about.

[big_teee]

Personally, I can't say enough good things about Seymour Duncan.
My limited experience with Their Products have always been a good quality product at a fair price.
Absolutely no one in the Pickup business has helped promote hand winding like Seymour Duncan and Company.
Also no one gives away as much valuable info as S.D.
Where else can you go and research a customers site and get a lot of Specs, dimensions, and all the history of winding like S.D. does!
There is a wealth of information, and Seymour is more than willing to share.
Frank Falbo has gotten on here and shared S.D. Info that he didn't have to share, many times. I personally thank him for it. (FrankenStrat78)
As far as this thread, its gotten out of hand, and some have forgotten that we should all agree to disagree with respect to others.
I don't know why so many debates on here seem to end up this way.
I think S.D. should at least be given the wait and see approach before all the bad-mouthing.
As Forrest Gump once said, "That's all I've got to say about that"!
Later,
Have a nice Night!

[copperheadroads]

I agree
Duncan pickups are a great buy from my experience
They always sound as described
, not like the crap that jay has on the GFS site

[Xaar]

I agree
Duncan pickups are a great buy from my experience
They always sound as described
, not like the crap that jay has on the GFS site

Gee the whole rescue squad is coming! Help!

Seiously, I NEVER said S-D made crappy products. Some models sound quite good even though overpriced, yes, (but so are Dimarzios etc etc) but that's not what I strongly criticized.

I was only mocking the choice of using silver wire, cryogenic treating of the whole pickup, the exagerated claims concerning the slugs ( a mediocre attempt according to me) and the insulting price of 1200bucks per set. You're not dreaming,it's in US dollars, not russian rubles.

[big_teee]

Gee the whole rescue squad is coming! Help!

Seiously, I NEVER said S-D made crappy products. Some models sound quite good even though overpriced, yes, (but so are Dimarzios etc etc) but that's not what I strongly criticized.

I was only mocking the choice of using silver wire, cryogenic treating of the whole pickup, the exagerated claims concerning the slugs ( a mediocre attempt according to me) and the insulting price of 1200bucks per set. You're not dreaming,it's in US dollars, not russian rubles.

You've made your case and point, now why don't you give them a break!
The other company you mentioned never gave anything to hand winders, Just Hell & LawSuits!
Have a nice Night!

[big_teee]

Before you go. All I can add is just don't take all this so personal.
If the product is too expensive, don't buy it.
We will just have to wait and see if their new product has merit.
I can give you one example of a good S.D. Bargain.
Go and try to get anyone to make you a matched set of pickups for $131.
Ask on here for someone to make you two pickups for $131.
Most on here will laugh in your face.
You can buy the S.D. Hot Rod Set all over this nation for that pricel
I bought a set of them a few years back and still have them.
Like I said just don't take all this so personal!
Later,

[David Schwab]

I don't think I've talked to anyone who has wound pickups that wouldn't argue that a pickup changes sound after the first day or two of existence.

I've never had that happen. Why would it? I think you think the tone changes because you get used to it. Try recording the pickup clean, DI preferably, and then re-record it a few days later with the exact same settings. You wont find any change in tone.

[Xaar]

I think this is a kind of cool idea. Some people have tried aluminum magnet wire so why not silver? Inductance differences alone will make it sound different. Others like Heritage HRW pickups and Callaham have done cryo treatment to pickups. It is nothing new but the others must feel there is something to it as well.

I do have one totally unsubstantiated assumption about them though. I'm wondering if the claim that the wire lays down in more orderly rows is really just because the silver wire being used is a thicker wire gauge than 42AWG for these? Again just pulled this out of thin air.

You're right. Nothing wrong with testing some silver wire or some other expensive material.
It could be used for RF , high temperature applications, etc.
BUT it is too similar to copper in terms of magnet wire, tests have been made before: there isn't any substantial gain in clarity or myriads of never before heard enhanced harmonics.
It's like copper but only an epsilon better when speaking of guitar pickups or any other audio range wound device.

It's like saying that 440C steel is fantastic and 440B is shit. Untrue and the difference isn't tremendous. Except that 440B & C don't have such a difference in price as copper and silver.

Aluminum is nothing like copper since it's properties are much different in many electrical and mechanical applications, even though i some applications you could simply replace aluminum by a comparably thinner copper wire.

If Callaham and Heritage cryo treat their pickups, good for them, I bet they take homeopathic remedies too and tell everyone it does miracles.

Check out handbooks which describe the applications and needs of cryogenic treatment. You'll find loads of useful info on hardening, annealing, how it changes the phase when it gradually comes back to room temperature, the consequences of the newly acuired grain structure etc
But you'll find nothing about cryogenically "improved" silver, copper, gold or any electrical wire. No charts showing the broadening of a given range, nothing.
It's all in mechanical features, not electrical conduction and sound improvement,even less "musicality".. and I'm not the one who wrote all these books.

[David Schwab]

I was only mocking the choice of using silver wire, cryogenic treating of the whole pickup, the exagerated claims concerning the slugs ( a mediocre attempt according to me) and the insulting price of 1200bucks per set.

Clearly you have never made a pickup. Why are you posting here? The only insults and exaggerations seem to be coming from you.

[Xaar]

JGundry, Id' even go further and say that if I were a clever salesman, I'd make pickups like Callaham and Heritage, with only what Fender lovers want to see in pickups:
NOS vintage correct materials, etc etc.
And I'd make extra attention to never be tempted to outsource current production in China or Korea for example.

Then, to raise the price ...(because selling an excellent vintage repro at only 40$ isn't how you're going to pay the bank what you owe them, when you decided to acquire that villa on the sunny coast)
you can just use any "approved by geeks and 100% devoted aficionados who'd sell their mother to have what the guitar gurus swear by" gimmick known in the trade.
Simply give them what the latest guitar or HiFi magazine is craving about.

It could be cryo treatment, putting them in a temple to sit for a month, whatever.
Space age or vintage is the way to go if you want to cash in serious dough.