Seymour's new cryo-silver pickup

[frankfalbo]

...But this latter part of the process should be incredibly close to linear. Thus the frequency and phase response also determine the transient response.

Not in my experience. EQ can't transcend the spacetime continuum. You'd have to play the pickups to feel it, but think of it like a faster slew rate. The rise time is faster. Speaking of acoustic guitars, we do these kinds of things with Mama Bear quite effectively over spacetime, but it requires DSP who's latency is many cycles behind the magic that is happening when you're playing these pickups. In other words, you'd be starting with copper, which is slower than silver already, then attempting to speed it up using something that takes even more time. There is a miniscule amount of "piezo" or "acoustic" immediacy in the top end that could possibly be simulated with piezo saddles EQ'd heavily and blended in but probably less than 5% or so.

...I think the other part is where the mojo is hiding. Maybe SD's use of multi-layered metals of different permeabilities gives the magnetic field a weird shape that makes the thing sound good. I can see how that would correlate to the claims of "jumpy", "bursty" and so on.

The "jumpy-bursty" is primarily realized in the silver wire, and references the initial transients. That is also to say that the "jumpy-bursty" transcends the entire line-HB, Strat, & Tele. The bimetallic pole pieces are affecting the early envelope. The best way I can describe it is that they influence a "moving EQ curve" over time. By comparison to our slugs, there is a strong fundamental that also carries with it a stronger lower midrange "pow" early in the envelope that eventually gives way to an EQ curve that is more "standard" as the note decays. The EQ curve of the Zephyr is unique anyway, but I'm referring solely to the pole piece in isolation, whether used in copper or silver. On the humbucker that could still be described under the "bursty" umbrella, since its most evident in the first 100-200ms of the envelope (depending on picking velocity)

Thanks to all who have opted to restore sanity to the thread, hopefully I'll follow your lead!

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

Good call Frank - as I said in an earlier post (that is kinda buried among the posts we'd rather not think about) too many think in terms of EQ and not enough in terms of envelope and general feel. I think this defines instruments more than anything else, because it is the hardest to correct in other ways. That is what I hear the most in differences between kinds of alnico, but that is just me and my feeble ears. Would you qualify what you're hearing as sounding like a quality of compression (or lack thereof) or more in terms of "speed", that the note seems to peak earlier?

[Rick Turner]

I got into cryo treating strings in 1985 and did a lot of research on the process. I wish I'd applied for a patent on that application of the process. I also cryo treated some MasterTone banjo tone rings in 1988 when I worked for Gibson. That is now a fairly well respected process for high end banjos. There was a tremendous amount of skepticism around the whole cryo treatment thing...and there still is, yet it's become pretty standard in the machine tool industry for drill bits, milling cutters, etc. It works, simple as that. Crystalline metals, particularly alloys, become more uniform through cryo treatment, and there's absolutely no reason to think that cryo treatment of permeable materials might not help, too. And yes, I know that cryo treatment is not supposed to work on non-ferrous metals...but it does, and it even works on at least some polymers.

If you can't think and explore "outside the box", you'll be boxed in for life. Remember that everything you read in textbooks was brand new information once upon a time.

[Rick Turner]

Frank was speaking of Mama Bear, and one of the reasons why we put in a "dry/wet" mix control to allow blending the unprocessed guitar sound with the DSP affected tone was exactly this issue of latency and wanting immediacy.

I suspect that the group delay is more uniform with the Zephyr pickups, and the interesting thing is that they could perhaps be fine tuned so the resonant peak and roll off is identical to other, more conventional humbuckers while still having that fast rise time. That would give you a warm, fat, fast sound. That fast rise time is what I hear in my Litz wire pickups, so I'm very familiar with what Frank is describing. And no, it doesn't show up in conventional pickup measuring techniques.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

There was a tremendous amount of skepticism around the whole cryo treatment thing...and there still is, yet it's become pretty standard in the machine tool industry for drill bits, milling cutters, etc. It works, simple as that. Crystalline metals, particularly alloys, become more uniform through cryo treatment, and there's absolutely no reason to think that cryo treatment of permeable materials might not help, too.

Rick, you're so right! This is what I find funny. Audio people will argue like crazy whether something is made up or not, but it might be entirely accepted and non-controversial outside of audio. One example that comes to mind is randomly winding coils... pickup people seem to think they discovered this phenomenon, but people who wind transformers have known about this and accepted it for a long, long time. I felt like an idiot when I was describing this stuff to an engineer friend and he knew it all already better than me.

Having said that, I never really got into Dean Markley Blue Steel strings... I'd love to try cryogenically treating a set of my favorite strings for comparison some time though... just because I'm a dork. What did you conclude Rick?

[Rick Turner]

Well, maybe you have to start with strings that you like in the first place...which I did using strings that Tom Vinci made for me.

What did I find? That the strings lasted longer and that I believed the harmonics to be truer...more even...more the true simple multiples of the fundamental. The strings may have sustained a bit longer as well which would make sense if the harmonics were truer. This was all based on my ears; I didn't have any analysis gear at that time, but my ears have led me in the right direction for many, many years and through a lot of interesting projects.

[Mike Sulzer]

I suspect that the group delay is more uniform with the Zephyr pickups, and the interesting thing is that they could perhaps be fine tuned so the resonant peak and roll off is identical to other, more conventional humbuckers while still having that fast rise time.

That highlights the contradiction with electrical engineering. If you are talking about an actual measurable rise time, then it cannot be different if the resonant peak and roll off are identical in two simple second order systems. You have to be talking about some perceptually apparent rise time that is really something else due to some other unknown property of the pickup.

It is important to understand what you can attribute to things like frequency response and impulse response and what you cannot. The same goes for group delay. Group delay is not really a useful engineering concept here because we are dealing with a second order filter and it also is determined by the filter characteristics.

It is always possible that there are more subtle characteristics in the frequency response that are responsible. For example, eddy currents in the pole pieces put a dip in the response in the mid range. It could be that an effect like that is interpreted by the brain as a change in "speed" or whatever. Who knows?

[Mike Sulzer]

Well, maybe you have to start with strings that you like in the first place...which I did using strings that Tom Vinci made for me.

What did I find? That the strings lasted longer and that I believed the harmonics to be truer...more even...more the true simple multiples of the fundamental. The strings may have sustained a bit longer as well which would make sense if the harmonics were truer. This was all based on my ears; I didn't have any analysis gear at that time, but my ears have led me in the right direction for many, many years and through a lot of interesting projects.

From that phase coherency discussion, it should be clear that you can reduce teh inharmonicity by reducing Young's modulus. Does cryp do that?

[frankfalbo]

It is always possible that there are more subtle characteristics in the frequency response that are responsible...dip in the response in the mid range...interpreted by the brain as a change in "speed" or whatever. Who knows?

That's the right line of thinking, because with an amp and speakers in the mix, frequencies fight for position constantly. So the absence of some can mean that others sneak out unscathed. However, we did a lot of frequency banding with these, and listened to them through lo-fi amps as well as boutiques, in addition to our normal listening processes. All the frequency banks have that same fast quality, and they have it whether we've cleaned away surrounding frequencies or allowed them to compete. Phil has one of those battery powered Ronnie Montrose amps. He could hear the same characteristics on that thing.

That's part of what is fun about listening to this extended high frequency response through overdrive. You'd think that through a warm overdrive the top end differences would be minimized, but they seemed even more noticable, due to the higher frequencies "working their way" downward by affecting other parts of the signal as things saturate. These pickups are just as exciting dirty as they are clean.

Have to agree with Rick . I never liked Dean Markley strings myself much, so I didn't like the Blue Steels. But Rick's comments are making me want to send off a set of my favorite strings the next time we do a batch of Zephyrs!

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

Have to agree with Rick . I never liked Dean Markley strings myself much, so I didn't like the Blue Steels. But Rick's comments are making me want to send off a set of my favorite strings the next time we do a batch of Zephyrs!

If you do, please report back!

And for sheer curiosity, what is your favorite brand? I always used D'Addario for customer stuff (most consistent, best intonation) but they always had weird overtones to my ears - not sure how else to describe it. I floated around with many different brands, but once they came out with their pure nickel line (which was way over due) I was hooked, so I have a "favorite brand" for the first time in a long time. It is a very special thing for a boy like me.

[Xaar]

Mike, are you sure about the linearity? It seems to me that the early envelope dynamics, etc. are when the string's amplitude is greatest, so any non-linearities from the magnetic part of the transducer, due to spatial non-uniformity of the field lines, would be noticeable there.

Maybe those bimetallic cryo-treated slugs produce some kind of multi-layered mojo-rich forcefield with undertones of raspberries and road tar, or whatever.

I noticed in the specs for 440C stainless that it actually recommends cryo treatment.

This thread is like a car wreck. I can't not look. And I'm actually thinking, hmm, maybe I could afford a single Strat one... Hey SD, want to send me one for a delightfully biased glowing review?

Very good point. Now try to guess WHY it's recommended.
For use as magnetic core in transformers? In sensors? ...Or as it's intended to be : for improved grain structure and overall toughening?

Cryo treatment with the LATTER goal in mind is documented and proven. It's no mojo.

But what would that have to do with improving magnetic properties? different flux saturation behaviour? Different coercivity , BH curve? Or is it so negligible that the industry simply avoided bothering with an unnecessary treatment?

To be sure about it, you need to get at your library or download the latest books on cryogenics, industrial metal processing, power transformers and superconductors.

I tried to find, honestly , info on conductors and soft magnetic steel being cryo treated not only for mechanical properties being improved but ALSO for magnetic applications.
Unfortunately, there wasn't a HINT of any documentation pertaining to the magnetic "enhancement" .

It's sad I have to repeat that magnetic behaviour is EFFECTIVELY modified when --maintained-- at liquid nitrogen or helium temperature, but not when "cryo treated" which is service at room temperature of :aterial that has been frozen and brought back gradually to room temperature.

If ever you find anything I didn't find, send me a PM, I'll be curious to read the excerpt or book in question, I'm not "close minded" as some promotion enthusiasts are here.

[Xaar]

Yes, I agree that the latter part of the process is linear. I think the other part is where the mojo is hiding. Maybe SD's use of multi-layered metals of different permeabilities gives the magnetic field a weird shape that makes the thing sound good. I can see how that would correlate to the claims of "jumpy", "bursty" and so on.

The regular Lemme kind of "pickup analyzers" can't measure this at all. You would need some kind of mechanical device that actually waggled a simulated string.

That weird shape you're talking about, is exactly what I started talking about in my deleted post:
I was interested in reading how the industry managed to "focus" the flux in the hard disk heads, because a magnet has it's flux literally going sideways on the edges of it's poles and very little flux emanating in the axis that coincides with the pole (speaking of "traditional" magnets shaped as cylindrical rods or paralellepipeds , with poles on opposite faces).
For read-write heads , the flux must be focused and ideally cone shaped (pointed outwards) instead of palm-tree like , if one had to illustrate how to draw a quick representation of the field coming out of ONE pole.
Cone shaping is a dream, the poles will always be the region with less flux, so sandwiches of ferrite and nickel and/or cobalt based soft magnetics were used to concentrate the field in the vicinity of the magnet's axis (usually ferrite) and reduce flux coming out of the edges of the head. A technology called "MIG" aka metal in gap.

That's why I said that sleeving nickel rods with 440C steel was some sort of attempt in flux focusing, which FrankFalbo told me it wasn't, but rather fluw shaping (I call that playing around with words)


Why did I think that duncan's designers wanted to focus the field? Because designs like the "hot rails" for example, with narrow spaced bars, sensed a smaller portion of the strings while minimizing flux losses.
so I thought that this time they wanted to opt for retro slug shapes and attempt to concentrate the flux in a narrower space for a clearer sound and less cancellation ( larger area sensed = more cancellation of harmonic content).

FrankFalbo told me it wasn't the case and refused to tell me why they opted for this "sleeved " solution.

Tell me what's your opinion about it .

[Xaar]

And yes, I know that cryo treatment is not supposed to work on non-ferrous metals...

Tin pest is an example of a non ferrous material affected by deep freezing temperatures although it's generally reversible in certain conditions.

the thing that boggles me is why some treatments are thought to be by some "magical" in the sense that because it improves certain properties in certain metals for example, it should always be enhancing, and that for any possible property and all materials.
To not think this way is not having a "boxed mind".

Taking the example of annealing, it is a beneficial for stress relieving in in some cases, when a material has excessive internal "tensions" and may be prone to cracking or failing abruptly under a load in structural applications, while the same process could be detrimental on perfectly tempered alloys who have no need of stress relief and who may lose strength and surface hardness if annealed.

There isn't one treatment that can be universally applied with the same result and the same goal on all materials. It's utopic and childish.

for example:

Today’s limited acceptance and use of deepcryogenic
treatment at liquid N2 temperature
(–196°C) is usually attributed to a lack of
understanding of the technology, as well as to
the absence of generally acceptable practices
for deploying it.
When the above two factors are resolved
the “science” of deep cryogenics and its potential
contributions will be shown. For example,
a deep-cryogenic treatment at –196°C between
quenching and tempering optimizes the
mechanical properties of AISI T15 high-speed
steel and dramatically improves its wear resistance,
compared with standard heat treatments
that do not incorporate a cryogenic step.
When the above is used, deep cryogenics
does indeed become a science — results are
predictable and the mechanical properties of the
heat-treated parts are optimized. This is why it
is believed that the use of the process during
heat treating should now be standard rather than
optional.
In future heat-treating guidelines and practices
and procedures it is recommended that
when using deep cryogenics as part of the heat
treatment, the temperature of the subsequent
temper be noted for the specific steel in the
hardness vs. tempering temperature.

(2002 article in CRC handbook of materials)

All this means that cryo treatment is widely performed , sometimes by companies who study the process and apply it while having fully understood how the procedure could be effectively applied and ONLY if predictable results can be found in the end result. which means that the phase changes are proved, documented and shots showing for example the grain boundaries in throughout certain changes in the crystal lattice are clearly visible under the microscope .
But some other companies do exactly what the CRC book explains : they apply cryogenic treatment that is INAPPROPRIATE for certain classes ans uses of given materials, that is why they say the issue of understanding the process is crucial and must be RESOLVED before any process is developed and applied.
You need to know which conditions affect a given product, not copy and paste a treatment developped for grain refining of steel and apply it verbatim on polymers and non ferrous materials altogether.
Would you use the same solvent on completely different polymers? Or the exact same formula and dosage of hardener on any resin precursor? Same drying times? eh..no, so why do cryo treatment companies appply more or less the same process on all materials alike? Or sometimes developed a custom process for non ferrous materials but made so in a complete undocumented and unverified manner?

Steel treatment via cryogenics is common for a very precise usage, and the only problem nowadays is that it isn't mentioned or labeled officially in the nomenclature, as the ASTM one. It should, and soon, they remarked finally in the article.

The discussion on being "close minded" is also interesting.
Alchemists often reported false results and had a fertile imagination.
We've advanced exponentially in terms of research the day scientists decided to me more PRECISE and rely on documented and VERIFIABLE PROOF. that's why in the XIXth and XXth century we've made such progress, because we didn't listen to the Church's views , nor the fantasy explanations of metaphysicians.
The day people will start saying "there's somethng unproven but that I "feel" is true" and do not try to dig in further and simply accept that feel as faith, well that marks the day that makes us go back to the obscurantism of old days.
Faith (personal, religious, whatever) vs science is how I see it, and not how some have coined it, "open minded vs close minded".

A true scientist is curious and openminded and WILL experiment with phenomenons he THINKS are truly occuring, until he discovers the mechanisms OR the irrelevancy of the phenomenon. And will incite others in the community to confirm or not his results for a general and approved consensus.

FrankFalbo told Mike Sulzer that he apparently not only listened to the pickups in a comparison but that he analyzed the too.

Word from mouth is not acceptable, if you have some graphs available, please post them , I'm eager to see them and not be taxed as being "close minded".
Simulation models with magnetics are possible too on computers ,and thus graphs are obtainable this way too, unfortunately I donnot have access to these very expensive programs designed for the magnetics industry.

Listening tests are vital, but must be performed blindfolded by people who have no relation whatsoever with the company who sells the products in question.
That's why I don't believe word from mouth, please understand this simple and clear point of view.

[Steve Conner]

That's why I said that sleeving nickel rods with 440C steel was some sort of attempt in flux focusing

FrankFalbo told me it wasn't the case and refused to tell me why they opted for this "sleeved " solution.

Tell me what's your opinion about it .

I think that SD experimented around and empirically found some sort of configuration that sounds good. And either they don't understand the real reason why it sounds good because they developed it by trial and error, or they want to keep the theory behind it a trade secret. I respect that either way.

If flux "focusing" were good, then pickups would simply sound better, the smaller the pole pieces were, and the higher permeability/saturation flux density they had. I think the real situation is more complicated than that, the non-uniformity of the field can be tuned to produce different audible effects, according to the pickup designer's taste. Which is why Frank said it wasn't "focusing", but "shaping the field the way we want it".

To take an example, I always wondered if there was a reason for the oversized pole screws on an Invader. (I have owned and enjoyed a few of those.) Maybe they generate a wide, uniform field that makes the pickup respond more linearly to large vibration amplitudes caused by heavy pummeling of the strings.

Maybe the extra mass of steel gives the pickup more inductance and more output, which is a different way that a pole piece can function in the system: as part of the electrical "filter".

Or maybe they are the equivalent of the tasting notes on the wine bottle: a decorative feature that primes you to "taste" whatever the wine maker wants. In other words, they just make it look "metal" and experimenter expectancy does the rest. I really don't understand it.

As an engineer, if I come across something unexpected, I try to measure it. A "Gedanken" experiment will do, to see if there is any way that the quantity could theoretically be measured. If not, I assume that I just imagined it, and anyone else who believes in it is dreaming too.

[Mike Sulzer]

Simulation models with magnetics are possible too on computers ,and thus graphs are obtainable this way too, unfortunately I donnot have access to these very expensive programs designed for the magnetics industry.

Full 3D programs are expensive. FEMM does 2D and cylindrical, suitable for a pole piece with radially varying permeability. It is free.