Seymour's new cryo-silver pickup

[salvarsan]

You've never seen the Monty Python witch hunt scene?

Disclaimer: watching this will turn you into a dork.

Too late.

The average airspeed of a european swallow is 24mph. There's a great link on the calculation.

In other news, cryogenic treatment organizations (not business) claim without attribution or documentation (so far) that cryo treated alloys usually see a 5-7% conductivity increase.

The microcrystalline changes are well-documented but most of the research papers I'm finding are interested in ductility or thermal conductivity. The historical inference that electrical and thermal conductivity correlate is suggestive, but is not evidence.

[Rick Turner]

Well, there's not much easier to measure than a change in electrical conductivity before and after cryo treatment.

BTW, there are a number of different processes and likewise a number of different target temperatures. The company I worked with did a fairly slow treatment over 72 hours so as not to introduce thermal shock. They took stuff down to minus 360 F. Many other companies only go down to minus 320 F. I don't know what that 40 degrees might mean, but going slow, both down and up, is a good thing.

I also had an entire Gibson F-5 mandolin cryo treated "in the white". I can tell you this: celluloid binding does not like to be that cold... The mandolin sounds fine now, and it's found a home somewhat appropriately in southern Tasmania where the next place south is Antarctica.

[David Schwab]

You've never seen the Monty Python witch hunt scene? YouTube - She's a witch!

Disclaimer: watching this will turn you into a dork.

The best Monty Python line is:

Large Man with Dead Body: Who's that then?
The Dead Collector: I dunno, must be a king.
Large Man with Dead Body: Why?
The Dead Collector: He hasn't got shit all over him.

[salvarsan]

Well, there's not much easier to measure than a change in electrical conductivity before and after cryo treatment.

Yup. If it's that easy, you'd think someone would have reported it in detail.

Solid state physics has a lot to say about thermal and electrical conductivity in the Free Electron Theory but it doesn't account for inhomogeneous crystal structure in a way that I can understand.

[Xaar]

@Salvarsan:

1) First of all "cryogenic steel" , describes two entirely different products: what ASM calls "cryogenic steel" (the real industry standard ) which is steel made for storage at cryo temperatures, while what some companies market as cryogenic steel (a non standard appellation) is synonym with cryo treated steel , and the latter has nothing to do with the first.

2) You claim that

The industry ran ahead of academic research until recently.

and that is very wrong.
Indutrials work hand in hand with what you call "academic research" which is nothing else than government funded research (they can be private labs under contract , universities, army etc). Anyways, papers are immediately written ecept in extremely rare cases when a company "hides" it's results from the community for issues relating to pending patents etc. Shortly after, you'll have inevitably a paper written by an "academic" guy investigating the matter.
for example, at tha NASA, there are many private companies who work with the government and share their results, there's no "academic research" and "industry research" snobbing each other here.

You (and many other unaware members here) have a very retrograde vision of today's research. And that's too bad.

3) All these "pervasive changements in microscopic structure in steel alloys" that the metallurgical industry refers to is nothing more than phase changes and what is modified is the balance bewteen austenite and martensite , chiefly.

Phase changes are known to those who studied metallurgy and/or crystallography as an option , thus many companies on the web just blabber and talk about "unknown" and "misunderstood" undiscovered crystalline changements. How convenient!

Steel microcrystalline structure is nothing smaller than atomic level, in fact it's at the molecular level or bigger, nothing that can pass unnoticed when studying a slab under the microscope to check the phases present in the alloy.

4) Silver.
Phase changes alter magnetic properties, no one EVER denied that, but what has that to do with cryo treatment of teflon insulated pure silver wire ?
Pure silver is unmodified by cryo treatment because it's supposed to be pure and alloy formation will not be altered since there isn't any. Thus no phase change nor grain refining when restored to room temperature after being put at cryo temperature.
That's why some companies say that the modifications are impossible to detect for "modern science". Sales gimmick.

We're far from having discovered everything and the day we do will never be, but always referring to "private secret discoveries" vs "academic modern science" is the sales pitch of commercials who only think about cashing in serious dough.

Salvarsan, you seem to have suddenly discovered that cryo treatment (well at least the documented and recognized cryo treatment which pertains chiefly to transformation of austenite to martensite in steel, for improved toughness hardness etc) could alter significantly steel,and that hese same phase changes could change magnetic properties.
Nothing new in fact!
The thing is: cryo treated 440C must have an equivalent soft magnetic alloy that is as common/cheap as 440C . Why insist upon cryo treating it?

I say it's just for the sake of cryo treating.

[David Schwab]

Xaar, I'm pretty sure the entire pickup is treated after it's been assembled, so all the parts get the treatment, even if it makes no difference. Maybe it only affects the pole pieces and keeper. I don't know how magnets fair in such treatments. But I'd guess that's in there as well.

You are obsessing over this whole thing. It's just a pickup. It's not who shot JFK.

[miggyman]

First let me state that I am not a pickup maker. I am a musician/guitarist/sound engineer of over 35 years experience.

I have to say that I am have been intrigued by the Zephyr pickups and the whole discussion on the topic. Not because of the all the technology behind it, though I respect and applaud that, but I want to hear and feel the uniqueness of expression and results I could obtain through them. What will my instrument sound and feel like is the initial question? The next one is how can i better express myself? the final one i think is what can i create?

It's about about the creation process and end product for me. The word "ARTIST" has a lot of weight to it of my perception of of how I view the area of music. It is a creation process and an exchange between the creator and listener. Pickup are tools like brushes are to paint. The brush itself may allow the paint to be drawn, held and delivered in a manner that will produce consistent results but it's ultimately up to the Artist to apply (and appreciate) those qualities. Paint is like an un played instrument. until it's applied it is not given life. Of course some pickups are perceived better than others because they consistently allow for the Artist to express themselves in a matter that is perceived by them, and the listener, as enjoyable and even extraordinary in combination with the instrument. An expression of the the instrument, when truly great, it's just not sonic but also an exchange of mind, body, and spirit. What missing in my senario? The canvas of course!!! The instrument's materials, qualities, strings, preamps, amps, speakers, cables, etc. all have interaction with each other including the pickup. The pickup is definitely key to the foundation of the initial signal sent in the chain. I wish I could test more of them but it's an expense I and most musicians can't handle.

However, that said, I don't understand the big debate with the price (though I lament it..:-)). I would love to own some very expensive instruments for their beauty, sound qualities, and playability, and imagine the possibilities of the experience. There may be disappointment, but I understand the expense. I have improved the level of "perceived " quality and results of few guitars just by changing the pickups and ultimately enjoyed them more. As an example (very broad one at that), I think it is totally possible to surpass the current sonic capabilities demonstrated by an instrument costing say $3000 by one costing $1000 by changing the pickups and electronics package and still invest far less than the $3000 instrument price. Those are arbitrary figures, but adding 1200 pickups to a guitar you are able to play to the best of your capabilities because you love the feel of it may exponentially increase it's expressive and sonic capabilities beyond investing in an instrument that cost much more than with the new pickups added.

I thank all designers, engineers and manufacturers for pushing the limits of technology. But I especially thank those who allow the "artist" in them to explore the possibilities of creating something different for the sake of extracting beauty from an instrument for the musician's expression of the heart, soul and spirit. Isn't it the end goal?

[big_teee]

First let me state that I am not a pickup maker. I am a musician/guitarist/sound engineer of over 35 years experience.

I have to say that I am have been intrigued by the Zephyr pickups and the whole discussion on the topic. Not because of the all the technology behind it, though I respect and applaud that, but I want to hear and feel the uniqueness of expression and results I could obtain through them. What will my instrument sound and feel like is the initial question? The next one is how can i better express myself? the final one i think is what can i create?

It's about about the creation process and end product for me. The word "ARTIST" has a lot of weight to it of my perception of of how I view the area of music. It is a creation process and an exchange between the creator and listener. Pickup are tools like brushes are to paint. The brush itself may allow the paint to be drawn, held and delivered in a manner that will produce consistent results but it's ultimately up to the Artist to apply (and appreciate) those qualities. Paint is like an un played instrument. until it's applied it is not given life. Of course some pickups are perceived better than others because they consistently allow for the Artist to express themselves in a matter that is perceived by them, and the listener, as enjoyable and even extraordinary in combination with the instrument. An expression of the the instrument, when truly great, it's just not sonic but also an exchange of mind, body, and spirit. What missing in my senario? The canvas of course!!! The instrument's materials, qualities, strings, preamps, amps, speakers, cables, etc. all have interaction with each other including the pickup. The pickup is definitely key to the foundation of the initial signal sent in the chain. I wish I could test more of them but it's an expense I and most musicians can't handle.

However, that said, I don't understand the big debate with the price (though I lament it..:-)). I would love to own some very expensive instruments for their beauty, sound qualities, and playability, and imagine the possibilities of the experience. There may be disappointment, but I understand the expense. I have improved the level of "perceived " quality and results of few guitars just by changing the pickups and ultimately enjoyed them more. As an example (very broad one at that), I think it is totally possible to surpass the current sonic capabilities demonstrated by an instrument costing say $3000 by one costing $1000 by changing the pickups and electronics package and still invest far less than the $3000 instrument price. Those are arbitrary figures, but adding 1200 pickups to a guitar you are able to play to the best of your capabilities because you love the feel of it may exponentially increase it's expressive and sonic capabilities beyond investing in an instrument that cost much more than with the new pickups added.

I thank all designers, engineers and manufacturers for pushing the limits of technology. But I especially thank those who allow the "artist" in them to explore the possibilities of creating something different for the sake of extracting beauty from an instrument for the musician's expression of the heart, soul and spirit. Isn't it the end goal?

Welcome to the Forum.
I recommend you buy a set, and give us a full Report.
You can be the judge and let us know the good and bad, and let us know if you think you got your money's worth!
Debating is one of the things that gets done here. This thread got its fair share of the Debate.
Good Luck,
Terry

[miggyman]

Thanks for the welcome.... But

Sorry Terry, I won't be "Investing" in these pickups any time soon. $$$$$ But. it's not out of the realm of possibility for the future. Hopefully others will take the plunge and honestly report back outstanding results with enough detail to weigh their conclusion.

[big_teee]

Sorry Terry, I won't be "Investing" in these pickups any time soon. $$$$$ But. it's not out of the realm of possibility for the future. Hopefully others will take the plunge and honestly report back outstanding results with enough detail to weigh their conclusion.

Lol! You were strong in Zephyr's Corner, and defense!
I just thought it looked like a perfect opportunity for you to Wade in and Let Us all know The Real Skinny and Low-Down!
I make better pickups than my Playing ability, so I don't see myself Zephyring Anytime soon!
Like I said Debating is a lot of what gets done here!
Later,
Terry