Formvar Single Coils...

[magnetic sound]

I made two strat single coil pups for a friend using 42 AWG formvar. A quick spec of them is one neck, one middle, overwound both based on his request, (approx 7.2k & 6.7k) alnico 5 staggered for a left-handed guitar, potted.

These were the second and third pickups I've done using formvar. The first one was just slightly less overwound and is in one of my strats. I found mine (first one wound) to be quite good. All of these pickups were replacing Texas Specials.

My friend says his have an almost chorus effect, especially when playing chords. I didn't notice this when he tried them out at my house. I am curious if anyone has had similar results or if this is a quality that formvar has. I am confident my wax potting is good and all the wiring is solid and correct. If he's not happy I'm not happy so I will probably be making him new ones using poly or plain enamel. However, I plan on using formvar more so I need to experiment more with it I suppose. I choose this design because he wanted an overwound hot pickup to push his amp. (although he states it doesn't really do that either!)

I have a feeling it may be something else other than the pickups but I'm not jumping to conclusions and am ready to except something is going on with them if that is the case. He's also using a Strat fitted with a tremolo bridge that has an extra spring to sort of make it a hard tail. I suggested first dampening the springs to make sure that may not be causing this sound.

Any ideas or insight? Maybe go with another alnico formula? Thanks!

[big_teee]

I made two strat single coil pups for a friend using 42 AWG formvar. A quick spec of them is one neck, one middle, overwound both based on his request, (approx 7.2k & 6.7k) alnico 5 staggered for a left-handed guitar, potted.

These were the second and third pickups I've done using formvar. The first one was just slightly less overwound and is in one of my strats. I found mine (first one wound) to be quite good. All of these pickups were replacing Texas Specials.

My friend says his have an almost chorus effect, especially when playing chords. I didn't notice this when he tried them out at my house. I am curious if anyone has had similar results or if this is a quality that formvar has. I am confident my wax potting is good and all the wiring is solid and correct. If he's not happy I'm not happy so I will probably be making him new ones using poly or plain enamel. However, I plan on using formvar more so I need to experiment more with it I suppose. I choose this design because he wanted an overwound hot pickup to push his amp. (although he states it doesn't really do that either!)

I have a feeling it may be something else other than the pickups but I'm not jumping to conclusions and am ready to except something is going on with them if that is the case. He's also using a Strat fitted with a tremolo bridge that has an extra spring to sort of make it a hard tail. I suggested first dampening the springs to make sure that may not be causing this sound.

Any ideas or insight? Maybe go with another alnico formula? Thanks!

Is this problem when on either neck or middle, or when both are selected?
If it is when both are selected, it sounds like an out of phase issue. Can you share more info?

Terry

[magnetic sound]

Hi Terry,

Sorry, should have specified...Apparently it is when either one or both is selected. I installed the pickups and am confident they are wired correctly.

Tom

[big_teee]

I don't know what would be causing the chorus affect.
If you didn't notice it at your house, sounds like other issues other than pickups.
I'm sure your next move is to take it back and try again at your amp and location.
I'm left handed and make left hand staggers, I don't over wind mine near that hot.
I've done 6.2k, 6.5k and 7.2k for bridge.
My normal wind is 5.8k neck 6.0-6.2k middle, and 6.3-6.5k for bridge, with Heavy Formvar.
Please let us know what you figure out!
Good Luck,

[magnetic sound]

Thanks Terry. I'm going to take a listen here, like you said. He did mention something about it at my house now that I think of it...Although I didn't notice a chorus effect. I have a theory though:

I just played my formvar pickup along with a bunch of my other strats loaded with my various single coils. I then played my Tele which has hand-wound pickups made by a custom pickup maker. There is that "bell like" quality that is rounder and more complex if you will, than stock pickups or to my ears, the Texas Specials. That is what I like most about hand-wound pickups. I am kind of wondering if he is just used to the Tex Special sound and stock pickups. Dunno. (this theory is also based on previous history of similar experiences with him.)

I'm not willing to discount something else but I got a feelin' I may be on the right track...I will let you know what I find out when I actually hear them again.

Thanks for your specs. If I end up making him some different ones I think I'll shoot for those.

Thanks

[copperheadroads]

Heavy Formvar gives you a more hollow sound than PE or Poly
Fatter sounding ,too much scatter & they can give you that cooked wah sound

[frankfalbo]

Are they too close to the strings? The strat magnets will tug on the strings and can make the string sound out of tune. Within a chord that could sound kind of line chorus.

[WolfeMacleod]

Check each individual magnet polarity.

[the great waldo]

Heavy Formvar gives you a more hollow sound than PE or Poly
Fatter sounding ,too much scatter & they can give you that cooked wah sound

I would go with copperheadroads, to much scatter winding can cause a wierd phasing sound (I think) I´ve had the problem myself and I think it was overscatterwinding that caused it.

Cheers
Andrew

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

Just a wild guess.... HF can be a lot darker than poly-nylon (depending on how it is used) and his amp may be reacting entirely differently than he is used to. Sometimes when an amp distorts but lacks a strong peak in the upper end (like with a high scatter) the distortion can have a chorus-ish vibe to it (no pun intended)... I hear it a lot with tweed amps.

Also, he may have had a tube go microphonic at the same time as you replaced his pickups (or just started noticing it when you replaced the pickups). It might be something you'll want to hear yourself before tearing the pickups apart.

[ken]

How close are his pickups to his strings?

[copperheadroads]

Check each individual magnet polarity.

I agree check each magnets polarity
a pickup with a one of its rod magnet with a reversed polarity can cause some unpleasant sounds

[magnetic sound]

Hi All,
Thanks for all the input. We haven't had a chance to get together yet so I can't really confirm what is going on just yet. But your suggestions are all something I need to look at. I was wondering myself how close he adjusted his pickups...I did a basic ballpark adjustment and told him to adjust it by ear. Very possible the pickups are way too close. Also, it's very likely I over-scattered them. This is something I'll just have to play with on other pickups so see how much is too much.

I'll have him bring his guitar and amp over soon and I'll be able to hear it for myself and determine where the problem might be. Another thing to note is after more discussion about his playing style, I think an over-wound design isn't the right choice for him either. He wanted an over-wound sound but the way he plays (more his setup and settings than technique) I don't think he'll really get any benefit from an over-wound pickup.

[big_teee]

Hi All,
Thanks for all the input. We haven't had a chance to get together yet so I can't really confirm what is going on just yet. But your suggestions are all something I need to look at. I was wondering myself how close he adjusted his pickups...I did a basic ballpark adjustment and told him to adjust it by ear. Very possible the pickups are way too close. Also, it's very likely I over-scattered them. This is something I'll just have to play with on other pickups so see how much is too much.

I'll have him bring his guitar and amp over soon and I'll be able to hear it for myself and determine where the problem might be. Another thing to note is after more discussion about his playing style, I think an over-wound design isn't the right choice for him either. He wanted an over-wound sound but the way he plays (more his setup and settings than technique) I don't think he'll really get any benefit from an over-wound pickup.

Hopefully not to be shot down in flames.
IMO It's hard to get to much scatter.
IMO it gives it a fatness you can't get with a large amount of TPL.
If high amounts of DCR is your goal, Lots of Scatter does impede that.
You do end up with less DCR in the same space.
So without Getting into you guys Proprietary formulas, what do others think is the desired TPL for 42 Hfv on a Strat Coil?
Rock On!
BigT

[magnetic sound]

OKAY...I had a chance to listen to the pickups in question and here is what I found out:

1) The initial description of the problem was quite far off.
2) There really wasn't any sort of weird artifact happening.
3) The owner requested a couple pickups (overwound) which were completely wrong for his style/sound he was going for.
4) I question how he has his settings on the guitar (volume & tone) because it contradicts what sound he is trying to achieve IMO.
5) I believe he had the pickups a little too high, although you could debate that.

I listened to him play and then I played the guitar. I ran both pickups (neck & middle) through a wide range of amp and guitar settings. They seemed to sound very good at low volume, and I think sounded really really good when I turned the amp up. (BTW - amp used was a mid 90's Fender Pro Jr. into a Top Hat 1x12 cab/Celestion Alnico Blue, no effects pedals.)

In the end I am removing the coils and winding new coils with either plain enamel or poly and winding to a lower turn count. If these pickups weren't left-hand staggered, I'd keep them and make him two new bobbins because I really do like the sound of these. But I have the specs I made these to so I should be able to make some up regardless.

I had a feeling this was how it was going to turn out because the person in question has a habit of doing this kind of stuff. I have looked at two amps of his with "weird sounds" which turn out to be nothing more than a typical tube amp. I have a strong feeling the newly wound pickups with yield some weird sound to him too. But either he likes them or not because I can't keep rewinding them.