Man vs. Machine Distributed Capacitance

[corduroyew]

I've always thought of scatter wound pickups being brighter sounding (like the new scatter wound Ric toasters).

What's everyone's view here on this? Do you find your scatters brighter or warmer?

I see hand winding as the Brazilian rosewood of pickups. The oil in Brazilian rosewood gives it a very warm, sometimes even dark sounding, tone but it also has a little high end sparkle to it. It is much warmer than your other bright acoustic woods, such as mahogany, but it also manages to be brighter. When you listen to Brazilian rosewood the high end sparkle isn't want hits most people. What hits you is the mellow, warm tone and long sustain. It's not until you listen a little closer that you hear the sparkle in the high end. When you play a mahogany acoustic guitar, the power in the high end it what hits you even though the high end isn't as high and sparkly as it would be on a Brazilian rosewood guitar. With hand wound pickups, they seem to have that high end sparkle that lots of machine wound pickups don't have, but the warm mids are what stand out to most people.

[mick]

Give a guitarist a choice between handwounds and machine wounds , we all know he will go the handwounds , it's the organic thing I would think , same with guitars , given a choice between a handmade guitar or a machine made one , same again , you are all starting to sound like the guitar makers who went to CNC claiming it was " better " etc , so how come the small hand builders are busier than ever with waiting lists to match , people being prepared to pay a premium and also wait up to 5 years is telling me something....

Mick

[David Schwab]

...you are all starting to sound like the guitar makers who went to CNC claiming it was " better " etc , so how come the small hand builders are busier than ever with waiting lists to match , people being prepared to pay a premium and also wait up to 5 years is telling me something....

It's not better... it's faster and easier. And more consistant. As a guitar builder myself, I think the answer is "the details". I don't think that CNC routers are bad things, because we all use power tools and machines to do things, rather than entirely by hand. I can use a coping saw and rasps and files to shape a body, or a band saw, and routers with templates, and an angle grinder with a sanding disk to shape the same body. And they sound the same.

I think what changes is when a company decides to start using CNC equipment, this is part of a process where they are trying to do things faster and cheaper, so that wont be the only place they make changes. Look at PRS... they are more expensive than ever, and are all CNC carved! Make them cheaper and sell them for more! That's just being greedy.

Another thing is often just the design of hand made instrument are more elaborate, and requires more attention to certain steps in the construction.

And then there's simple things.. like fretwork. I've worked on quite a few brand new US made Strats that needed fretwork right out of the box.. or case as it were. The fretboards were not level, and neither were the frets. The guitar played 100% better after the work. That shouldn't be the case with a brand new guitar. They are in a hurry to get it out the door. (In all fairness, some companies like Carvin do excellent fretwork for factory guitars). Also look at Rickenebacker. They are still hand made.

And the same is true to setups. I spent an afternoon in a few music stores on 48th Street in NYC last year checking out basses and amps and stuff. I've been playing my own basses so long I wanted to see some of the stuff I see in Bass Player every month. Horrid experience! Sam Ash was the worst! Some of the instrument were not even playable... one string was so low on a brand new Jazz Bass that it was sitting on the pickup. Knobs were missing and pots were loose. On one the output jack's nut had come off and the jack had falling inside the body! And most of the basses had their action so high (to cover up that bad fret work!) to make them unplayable. The only bass that was setup nice was an Ibanez six string.

I've seen some nice factory woodwork on Epiphones. Just replace the pickups and hardware, and they are pretty good!

And this is how it will always be.. and that's a good thing for small builders and pickup makers like us!

Personally I'd love to have a CNC setup, and an autowinder for pickups! I think within those restraints good products can be designed and built.

[mick]

It's not better... it's faster and easier. And more consistant.

Yeah better ......thats what I said , I was speaking from a manufacturing point of view , not quality etc .. same with pickups really , everybody here has bagged seymour /dimzio /machine wounds etc yet you go the same way.... are you all telling your customers that you are now machine winding?? is your customer service going to go out of the window ? lost the personal touch that made you so popular to start with ?, you will all turn into the very thing that made you hand wind in the first place , funny how it turns out ,

Mick

[ken]

I have a CNC machine winder (under construction) and a couple of hand winders. Each has their uses. I am building a CNC machine winder because due to hand issues I can't wind all the pickups I want to, and I can't very well ask my wife to wind them all the time either. She has a life too.

Just because anyone owns a machine winder or other CNC tools does not mean that they are 'going corporate', or losing any personal touch with their customers. For me, it means that I will be able to finally do two things at one time. Also, I am not planning to use my CNC winder all of the time either.

David is right, CNC machines are faster and more consistent... to a point. I work in a CNC machine shop 'days', and the CNC machine's output is only as good as the operator. It will make scrap just as efficiently and at just as fast as a good part. If the operator doesn't care, garbage will still go out the door.

However, the last things David mentions in his email (bad fretwork/setups on new basses) are human issues, not machine caused. If the humans who fretted/assembled those instruments didn't care to do their jobs properly, and the salesmen at the music stores did more prep than just unpacking guitars and hanging them on the wall, the instruments wouldn't be so bad.

ken

[mick]

Yeah , working in a factory they have time constraints /quota's etc , can't say that fender or gibsons machine wound pickups were an improvement over anything they were doing by hand , they were more consistently shit though..

Mick

[JGundry]

In the initial development of a pickup computerized winding is not easier. In some ways it is harder since you now have a much larger set of parameters under your control. An example of something that you could only do with a computer would be doing a perfectly even 20 second traverse across a bobbin. What would that sound like? You will never know by hand winding and you can be sure that there will be a scatter in that sort controlled traverse that you can't get by hand. Maybe it would sound great maybe not. The point is there are many, many more choices to be made about how you will wind the coil. I think this a great advantage to any maker.

Make no mistake about it. With either hand winding or computerized winding the maker is still in control of the entire process. You just get more precise control with computerized winding with repeatability that you can't get by hand winding. Higher level of control, better repeatability and faster delivery to the customer. I don't see where the down side is for either the maker or the consumer. As long as the maker is attentive to the results then both machine and hand wound pickups will sound great.

[ken]

You know, I'm not even sure how to deal with 'development' issues with a CNC winder. I'm sure the learning curve is just as long if not even longer than a 'real' winder.

As far as I can figure out, all I can do is tell the winder that the lowest amount of winds on a layer will be. for example, 40 turns. Then, I can tell the winder the highest amount of turns will be, say, 250 turns. Then I can tell the winder to use random numbers between these limits to wind the coil like this example... first layer 159 turns, second 248, third 79, etc. The problem is that once you find that 'magic' wind on a automated counter, how would you even keep it so it will happen over and over? My head hurts thinking about it.

Mick is right, 'machine made' major maker pickups were more consistently bad. However, I think it probably was because the programmer and/or operator of the machine making those pickups was more interested in time to going home, that cutie at the end of the aisle, hangover, etc. than making a toneful product. After all, when it's your personal product going out the door you take more care than if it's someone else's name on the box.

FYI - Fender didn't even get automated winders like Gibson had until CBS bought them in '65, then they had a time reconciling the more accurate winders with Leo's 'original recipe'. Just one of CBS's 'better ideas', like really crappy coil wire, less and less wire on pickups, etc.

I still love to hand wind pickups...

ken

[mick]

"An example of something that you could only do with a computer would be doing a perfectly even 20 second traverse across a bobbin. What would that sound like? "



probably sound similar to all the other factory wounds...that's what makes the handwounds so popular , it's the human error etc factor that made them so good in the first place ( and I don't mean sloppy assembly etc ), and it's not going to be replicated by a machine....that's like trying to program a CNC router to replicate hand building guitars , sorry guys but it's not going to happen , it's too perfect/antiseptic , whatever we call it ( feel would maybe explain it ) like the diff between a custom built sportscar and a mass produced skyline etc , the skyline will do the same job , just as fast etc , it's probably more efficient too but will it be the same fun , nope.... no character...

Mick

[Possum]

Cnsee

A CNC machine is just a tool. If you use it the way the manual tells you too of course you're probably going to have pickups that sound like the other guy who bought the same machine. Don Mare used to cry to me all the time about "out of the box" thinking (he should be locked up in one...) but he was right. An industrial winder is made to wind perfect coils, the first thing you should do when you get one is learn THEIR WAY so you understand the machine and learn how to work it. THEN figure out how to make it fuck up :-) There are any number of ways to make those machines do a good job of hand wound tones. Takes alot of figuring it out, its actually HARDER than hand winding because you really have to THINK about all those parameters like Jon said, because you have infinitely more control on a machine. FActory pickups suck shit because all they did was read the manual and had the machine put alot of wire on a bobbin, thats about as far as most of 'em got. Those guys in big companies aren't gonna sit around for 6 months winding endless prototypes to see what sounds best, they take the easiest way out, wind a couple if they sound passable then they're out the door. Hey who's smoking that Brazilian rosewood in here again, ya know that stuff is illegal?

[JGundry]

"An example of something that you could only do with a computer would be doing a perfectly even 20 second traverse across a bobbin. What would that sound like? "



probably sound similar to all the other factory wounds...that's what makes the handwounds so popular , it's the human error etc factor that made them so good in the first place ( and I don't mean sloppy assembly etc ), and it's not going to be replicated by a machine....that's like trying to program a CNC router to replicate hand building guitars , sorry guys but it's not going to happen , it's too perfect/antiseptic , whatever we call it ( feel would maybe explain it ) like the diff between a custom built sportscar and a mass produced skyline etc , the skyline will do the same job , just as fast etc , it's probably more efficient too but will it be the same fun , nope.... no character...

Mick

Your kidding yourself if you think that machine winding takes the human factor out of making pickups. I enjoy hand winding and I'm not knocking it. I can't speak for them but how many of the pickups that Lollar or Wolfe make do you think are hand wound? I don't hear people describing their pickups as too perfect or antiseptic. Dave is right it is just another tool. If you can get a handle on all of the parameters it is a tool like no other.

[Spence]

Just had a look at your website Jon. Really nice looking kit which I applaud you for. You do seem to emphasis the handwired aspect. Not too dissimilar to the 'handwound' aspect then.

Personally, I think handwound pickups are a different thing from machine wound pickups. Which is best? Personal preference is the only answer to that question. I can see however that in order to step up production you either have to employ a stack of people to hand wind or get in some machinery. If you can make a machine work for you like Jason Lollar and Possum feel they have done then you will have achieved something more than a straight robot with no feeling or understanding. The key thing is that Jason and Possum's machines ( which are quite different ) are not of the walk-away variety. You still need to make an input.

I could quite easily design a machine that will load it's own bobbins and start/stop winding on it's own all day long. Maybe I'll do that instead of making pickups.

[David Schwab]

Dave, You are probably the only one I ever met that likes New Coke.

Yeah, but how many people drink Diet Coke? It's the same formula! Diet Coke is New Coke without the sugar. They stopped selling New Coke around here shortly after the Classic Coke came back. They do still make it, but I have no idea where to get it.

I had a very interesting argument a week ago with somebody who said all PAF's should sound loud and distorted.

Loud and distorted? From an 8K pickup with alnico magnets? OK... sure. Keep him away from a Duncan Invader! PAF's are relatively low gain pickups... I guess when people started playing them through Fender amps, and then later hot rodded clones of Bassman amps (Marshals), well yeah... louder than a Strat!

I told him that if he wanted to hear his PAF's the way Les Paul and Seth Lover intended, they should play through a Gibson amp with very low gain - they were supposed to sound much like Leo's single coils, and the only advantage they had over 'other pickups' was the noise cancelling feature.

Exactly. Like old P-90's. I had an ES-330TD with the chrome covered dog ears. They weren't wound as hot at the P-90's you found in like the 70's SG's... only about 8K. Real clear and sweet sounding. In the neck position they sounded like a big fat Strat.

I get a good laugh from the pickups I pull out of the Epi LP's I buy, they all say 'double wax potted' on the tearoff plastic labels Epi puts on the pickup covers to keep them from being scratched.

Double wax potted? That's a good one. "Let's kill off what ever tone we managed to retain with our funky parts..." I have a box of generic DiMarzio looking pickups that sound way better than those Epi pickups. I really think a factory made pickup can be made to sound decent. Maybe not outstanding, but serviceable. It's not all that hard... it's probably harder to design a real clunker, but they manage to do it. Yamaha makes some dreadful sounding pickups.

I never gave my scatter much thought, it 'is wut it is'. However, I am working on a CNC winder myself so I will have to give these things some thought. I guess your 'hand scatter' is kinda like a fingerprint, as none of us would do the same thing exactly the same way.

I'm sure that's true. I just try to not have the wire all pile up in one spot! In the beginning you wonder how much you should scatter, and how fast? Then you fall into some kind of pattern that's comfortable to you, and seems to make sense.

[David Schwab]

However, the last things David mentions in his email (bad fretwork/setups on new basses) are human issues, not machine caused. If the humans who fretted/assembled those instruments didn't care to do their jobs properly, and the salesmen at the music stores did more prep than just unpacking guitars and hanging them on the wall, the instruments wouldn't be so bad.

And I think it all comes down to cost. I'm sure Fender has a method all the workers follow, so it doesn't reply on the skill of the worker as much. Fretwork is a real craft, and a company like Fender doesn't have the time it takes to do a good fret job and setup because they have a quota to fill. They have their Custom Shop for that. I hate to say it, but those aren't much better either. And they go down the hall and grab up the same parts used in the assembly line instruments!

Then you have a big chain like Sam Ash who isn't hiring people that really know about setups, or they have one person they use for that stuff. They probably leave the guitars setup poorly so you have to pay to have them setup correctly!

[kevinT]

What kind of winder do you have? Curious...

I finally got my camera back to take some pics. My winder is by Gorman Machine out of Brockton, MA. It is their Star Winding Machine. They have a short 3 minute movie of the machine in operation. here is the link

http://gormanmachine.com/star.html

The thing about using a machine controlled wind is you basically have to throw everything you thought you knew about winding out the window and start over.

oh yes. totally!!

You can get a handwound tone from a machine but no one is going to tell you how to do it and you'll burn alot of wire figuring it out, and what you come up with will be different than everyone else, so again it will have your touch. there are things you can do with a machine that will create a true random scatter

Yes... I had planned on burning up a lot of wire. i guess it's the nature of the beast when trying a design a pickup with a specific tone you're after.